Modi 3.0 Is Neighborhood Still First?

[00:00:00] Hey there, this is Kushif from PEI. On the 4th of June India's General Elections came to an end with Narayendra Modi securing a historic third term. The elections were one of the most eagerly

[00:00:23] awaited events of this year given their impacts not just on the nation itself but on the future of regional dynamics in South Asia. So this week we are re-broadcasting the conversations from our live webinar, Modi 3.0 is Neighborhood Still First. Hosted by PEI's Srivangi

[00:00:41] photo with a brilliant panel of experts from across South Asia, the conversation is a comprehensive examination of India's neighborhood diplomacy with a specific focus on how Modi's third term as Prime Minister may impact India's relationships and dynamics with its immediate neighbors.

[00:01:00] They cover geopolitical, economic and sociopolitical dimensions of these regional dynamics and also focus on country-specific conditions in South Asia and how potential shifts in India's foreign policy might influence their trajectories. Join us as we reflect on this crucial

[00:01:17] conversation on South Asia's evolving political landscape. Thank you for tuning in. All right, hello everyone and welcome to the webinar, Modi 3.0 is the Neighborhood Still First. I am Shavanki Baudha, your host for today's webinar and this webinar is a part of the

[00:01:40] geopolitics webinar series organized by policy entrepreneurs in and is shoot a dedicated exploring critical global and regional developments and how it affects us. PA has also been undertaking some important research work in this area, also publishing two research papers.

[00:01:56] The first publication named the Penbauer in Politics explores India and China's exercise of soft power through education diplomacy in South Asia. The second publication is called often-resructured diplomacy and development, which explores and involves engagement with its major

[00:02:11] bilateral partners for infrastructure development. If you would like to check them out, please head on to our website, PA.center. Now, to briefly expect explain what we can expect in the next 90 minutes, we will be discussing various facets of India's

[00:02:29] immediate neighbors in South Asia, particularly Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Nepal, and how things may continue to evolve under a Narendra Modi 3rd term in office as the Prime Minister of India. We have a wonderful regional representation on our panel of speakers joining us today,

[00:02:46] each providing us a unique perspective on this important topic. Let me briefly introduce our distinguished panelists. Ms. Suhaseenee Heather, our panelist from India, she is the diplomatic editor of the Hindu, where she writes on foreign policy issues in a weekly show, World View with Suhaseenee

[00:03:04] Heather. Prior to this, she worked as a foreign affairs editor and prime time anchor for a leading private news channel. Throughout her career spending nearly three decades, she has reported extensively on issues from across South Asia and beyond. She has closely observed India's foreign affairs

[00:03:22] for over a decade, and also doing in-depth coverage of domestic politics, which is also led to her receiving several awards and accolades for her impactful journalism. Our second panelist, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Our second panelist, Dr. Imbia Zayma, is the executive director

[00:03:44] of Center for Alternatives and the former professor of international relations at the University of Taka in Bangladesh. He has held teaching positions at universities globally, including Sir Guest University of Paris, Carlton University and Taylor's University of Paralympic.

[00:04:00] Dr. Amod's research focuses on South Asian politics, religion, culture, tolerance, terrorism, development, refugees, migration, and the environment. He is a prolific scholar having authored coauthored and edited 57 books, 120 monographs and published over 125 research papers. His recent publications cover topics like the COVID-19 pandemic, water rights in Bangladesh,

[00:04:25] responses to terrorism, and innovation in education. Asanga Avayaguna Zaykar off from Sri Lanka as our third panelist. He is the senior fellow and executive director of the South Asia Force site network at the Millennium Project in Washington, D.C., where he also serves as a technical

[00:04:42] advisor to the International Monetary Fund. In the past, Asanga has led government think tanks in Sri Lanka, so having a founding director general of the National Security Think Tank and the executive director of the Luxembourg Card League Amar, Institute for International Relations and Security Studies.

[00:04:59] He is a senior security advisor to the leader of the opposition in the Paralympic of Sri Lanka. He has also several books including his most recent work to your drop diplomacy. Our fourth panelist is Anraga Charya from Nepal, who serves as a director at Policy Entrepreneurs Inc.

[00:05:16] Anraga over a decade-long experience has worked in Nepal's governance and politics through research and programming with different national and international organizations. At PEI, he leads a thematic research on areas of governance, politics, and international relations. Anraga is a

[00:05:32] former journalist and a well-known political commentator who writes extensively on Nepal and South Asia for national and international associations. I would like to welcome and thank you all for being a part of this very important discussion today. I would also like everybody to note

[00:05:48] that our speaker from India so has any Heather will be joining us shortly, but we will commence with the program for now. So before we get into Modi government and its neighborhood diplomacy, let's begin today's discussion by exploring the historical context of India's relationship with

[00:06:04] its neighbors in South Asia. Let me begin with you on red. Now India's relationship with Nepal has historical and deep cultural roots. We always talk about this. This has been shaped by their shared experiences and support for each other's democratic movements. The open borders,

[00:06:19] despite its challenges, is always talked about as one of the most unique bilateral arrangements however the relationship is not without its share of challenges. Can you provide an overview of how the two countries have managed this relationship over the past decade and how does influenced

[00:06:34] people to people ties including the population living in the borderlands? Thank you for the question, Srivanki. I think Nepal's relationship with India must be seen at two different levels. First at the state to state levels which also has a colonial legacy to it and of the British India,

[00:06:58] which treated India as a kind of a protectorate state. The independent India and by that I mean the bureaucracy in India inherited this mindset, colonial mindset that often behaves in a way that makes Nepal government and people in general very suspicious of the new Delhi's excessive

[00:07:20] interest in our domestic affairs, which is often covered in our media. Thankfully this is not a defining regard for Nepal's relationship with India. The second and more important realm of India's relationship with India is at people to people level and this is more important

[00:07:38] and this could be between people living in the borderlands on either side or among civil society on both sides or even among political parties on both sides. So this is an important factor I

[00:07:52] feel which has ensured that tensions and the misgivings on both sides are sort of not allowed to know and are you know often emitably addressed over times through a lot of back channels.

[00:08:07] Now I have quoted this somewhere in my writings that there was a time when Nepalese Prime Minister gives up a subquerala, Christian Prasapatra could pick up phone and call their Indian counterparts Rajivwani, Ayyai Kusra and Sonsar Saitr, we expressed their concerns and vice versa.

[00:08:27] This was because they have been part of each other's political movement, you know extended solidarity across the borders even part of the image of this movement and democratic struggles. So this that generation is now no more and the income and political class on both sides I feel

[00:08:48] have not kind of cultivated those ties at those levels which means they often struggle to reach out or trust each other or even empathize with each other's concerns. Well the state-to-state relationships come under pressure. Now this certainly makes their behavior

[00:09:09] and policies towards each other less predictable and which sort of sustains the tensions that that bid. Now we saw this happening in 2015 and it could have happened again if the two countries are not able to address the underlying tensions and can cultivate genuine trust for each other.

[00:09:29] Thank you Honorek. I mean let me bring a song under the conversation now like as in Nepal's case the historical relationship between India and Sri Lanka also extends beyond just diplomatic ties with deep rooted cultural people to people ties particularly between the Tamil population which

[00:09:45] also constitutes a sizable portion of the Sri Lanka demography. This relationship was also punctuated by periods of insurgency and tragic assassination of India's 10 Prime Minister Rajeev Gandhi. How do you think the two neighbors have managed this relationship historically?

[00:10:02] Well in Mordi 3.0 the relationship I would say has dramatically sort of moved from its position on the evolution of power which has been discussed by our President a few months ago just before the inauguration, the his commitment as well as the Tamil

[00:10:27] Party's commitment through sort of basically come with solution for the evolution of power. This is to the provincial council which Sri Lanka has and full powers as well as you know this has

[00:10:44] been a long discussion in the Indian agenda. When Dr. Jashankar when he visited Sri Lanka after his assuming office so his first visit bilateral visit was to Sri Lanka this time and you could

[00:11:04] see the importance of Sri Lanka from this visit because the next election the presidential election is going to be in Sri Lanka as well as there's going to be many changes that you could see in

[00:11:16] September and October so the presidential election will be in September. The Tamil question the reconciliation process which is long Odu which has been discussed by many governments after the you know in the post walk context has never been fulfilled. So there are many issues

[00:11:39] on the human rights council even HRC where India is concerned on the Tamil minority concerns in Sri Lanka has not been addressed genuinely. So that is a concern for India and you could see even during the Indian election when the Prime Minister Modi basically discussed about Kachativ issue.

[00:12:03] So Kachativ always comes during the election time basically to win the vote of the southern Tamil parties as well as to for their political aspirations so to cater to them and this is

[00:12:22] it's mean sort of a historical thing but then now what you see in 3.0 IC at tremendous significant shift from the Chinese influence which is was very strong. Before the crisis the economic crisis now you see an significant Indian influence when it comes to infrastructure

[00:12:45] energy trade as well as in the maritime domain where you could see again Dr. Jai Shankar's visit he inaugurated the maritime coordination and rescue center MRCS which is a coordination center for the Indian Ocean vessels for rescue vessels. So you see all of these dimensions playing

[00:13:12] in Sri Lanka and very interestingly what I see is that the ones who are against the in 2.0 Modi 2.0 like the Rajapaksas for example protesting against Indian projects has joined basically the present president Vikram Singhha and now supporting India so in 2017 they were against

[00:13:38] a Chinese built airport which was going to be leased out two basically to India where Rajapaksas were protesting and now you see Rajapaksas supporting India with Vikram Singhha so it's a new kind of

[00:13:55] political dimension that you see as well as shifting India's policy towards Sri Lanka but I see a tremendous success in Modi's foreign policy in Sri Lanka. I mean thank you Asanga and will definitely be getting more into these influences counter influences and shifts later on in the webinar

[00:14:17] but for now I'd like to go to Dr. Emma how would you characterize the general state of India Bangladesh relations in the decades since Bangladesh gained its independence in 1970 I mean there is a longer historical context that goes before 1970 but can provide an overview of how the

[00:14:36] Diamond Armids between these two neighbours have evolved in the years following Bangladesh's independence. Thank you thank you very much I think when it comes to bilateral relationship I guess we are in a best position in South Asia. Asanga talks about little bit of attention

[00:14:59] or previous tension between Sri Lanka and India and so did Dr. Acharya on the issue of Nepal and India but on the on this of Bangladesh and India he has evolved dramatically particularly after

[00:15:19] Sri Ghasina coming to power for the second time in 2009 I think since 2009 we have something what I call regime stability. Bangladesh still suffers from lack of political instability and we never had political stability actually. Well, the South Asian countries you know they don't have political stability

[00:15:51] what we had for the first time and what we still have for the first time is regime stability so since end of 2008 or 2009 onwards the same regime has stayed and that has made a difference because of regime stability the government could do lot of things

[00:16:13] together with India and together with other countries as well based on the fund policy principle of friendship to all allies towards none that bunga bantu you know declared way back doing the height of the whole world

[00:16:33] the principle was not done after 71 was pre-71 when we were part of Pakistan and that principle stayed and it worked in the in the case of Bangladesh positively mainly because the principle is based on the issue of economic development and not on security issues

[00:16:59] on the security issues, Bangladesh has always been hesitant to make spatial relationship with you know whichever country in the civil countries wants to make spatial relationship particularly in United States is very keen to make spatial security arrangements with Bangladesh

[00:17:19] but somehow Bangladesh has succeeded so far in not doing that and I don't think any regime can do that that also is the case but what Bangladesh has done is on the issue of development they got this friendship to all in a way where we have you know

[00:17:44] interesting investment from all the countries including United States maybe the focus or energy energy more than other roads and highways where no doubt India and China maybe more China than India but still both have invested in roads and highways in railways

[00:18:09] and I think this is going to go up but still we still have some issues that are you know where the two sides have not succeeded in resolving one would be the water issue of course

[00:18:29] and that also is ready to this time ever more than other rivers that's one area the border killing would be the other one some there are extra judicial killing in the border area

[00:18:45] that is also a concern for a lot of Bangladesh is and of course there are other issues like maybe some criminals of India hiding in Bangladesh and other those are certain small things but still sometimes it can be big now the issue of water

[00:19:11] there has been some change and also it went beyond India and I think Nepal probably would be interested in this development what happened is the Tistar river as you know it flows all the way

[00:19:30] from Himalayas via Sikkim and then was Bengal and then Bangladesh now on that particular river there was a deal or a draft was made between Bangladesh and India 12 years back mainly

[00:19:48] to sharing the water which West Bengal did not agree and I have always argued that there is good you know good reasons for West Bengal not to agree even as a Bangladesh year but as an academic

[00:20:04] as I was saying you know no West Bengal chief minister will do that and the reason is quite simple because Sikkim has already built 26 live hydropower projects and each of these hydropower

[00:20:23] projects though they say is one of the river projects but one of the river project is a misnomer you know and Indian hydropower you know extraordinary hydrology ourselves say Colandudro it makes it very clear that there is nothing called run of the river because when you put a

[00:20:44] hydropower project it will divert water you know to some extent and his calculation is 5% and the reason is quite simple because if you build a hydropower project it is not only a hydropower

[00:20:57] project that you build you actually build cities around you know you have to have people to look after the hydropower project so hospitals get built schools get built roads and all so a little

[00:21:10] cities develop near around hydropower project it's not like you you keep the hydropower to isolate it and for that reason according to his calculation 5% water gas devoted so if you have 26

[00:21:26] hydropower projects small and give and on the average if it is 5% or if it is less you know there's hardly any water during the winter season and that's that's the contention of his Bengal so unless you bring

[00:21:43] unless you bring Sikkim to this whole sharing there's no reason why Bengal should agree to this and this Delhi has been hesitant for different reasons because they have invested on those hydropower projects so they are going to there are going to dismantle them

[00:22:00] so the chain that has happened recently and where a little bit of geopolitics also come is that Bangladesh then decided over the years the engineers thought how about you know preserving the water during the rainy season when we have more water if we can you know have a

[00:22:19] reservoir or something of that kind and keep the rainy season water and use that water during the dry season so that was the what you call kind of a plan to which when it was given to the

[00:22:36] Chinese the Chinese showed interest code unquote they haven't promised but they showed interest and on the basis of the interest they also did an assessment and say it's impossible you know I'm sure some of you are familiar with the Chinese in such a development and efficiency they have

[00:22:55] built over the years so this area is possible to do that but it will cost and the calculation is around a little bit less than one billion dollar and the Chinese said they are ready

[00:23:10] now when the election and the Indian election in this and then you very well that right after Bangladesh's election our prime minister would visit China that was planned already visit to Delhi and visit to Beijing was already announced and so the new that after the election

[00:23:30] she will visit Beijing so the India's pharmaceutical company comes to darker and makes you know the statement did not come from India's pharmaceutical company but came from our former minister that India is interested in the management project

[00:23:50] wants to join the management project and so that was a change because it clearly shows that the sharing of water is not going to happen and that has created the little bit of problem for

[00:24:05] Bernhardt they shall also because India also want to do an assessment although the Chinese have already done the assessment so the question is would India do it alone or will it join with China or can there be a consortium where Asian development bank, Japan, Warbank they also enter

[00:24:28] this mega project so that's I think is something that has now been discussed but what has happened is our prime minister went to the inaugural you know this during the Modi's third time coming to power she was there and I think within two weeks

[00:24:52] she went back for a bilateral visit and in that bilateral visit you know the statement clearly pointed out that India wants to join this management and want to resolve this bilateral but within 24 hours, Mammotha Bhanagin came out with a letter

[00:25:17] actually to the public it's available on the internet. Later to the prime minister of India saying that no sharing will be allowed no linking of the reverse would be allowed because there was

[00:25:33] other idea that other Indian reverse would be linked to Tistha to be in the water and she may be very clear that Tistha has to go to the original form which means you dismantle the 26

[00:25:48] hydro power projects which is which is not possible so one thing is now clear that there will be no sharing of water and this is a new development in those who are interested in the water

[00:26:00] discourse so other than that I think we have excellent relationship the two countries but as I said this is one and the final thing I want to say our prime minister now is in Beijing

[00:26:17] 20 or MWU has been signed with different companies and all there is a focus on high tech more on high tech even electric vehicles will be built in Bangladesh or more technology cooperation with with with China I don't think Tistha will maybe they have discussed but I think

[00:26:43] they will still wait for the lead to come up with its own plan and see what can be done so I guess our relationship will continue on the development platform not so much on security or doing something which would eliminate other countries I think Bangladesh is

[00:27:06] very careful in that you know I mean relationship with China in a way which would not eliminate other countries and if it is development is a win win situation for all so I guess Bangladesh will continue even with this little bit problems here and there

[00:27:25] having good relationship with India thank you and the state thank you professor Ahmed thank you to all panelists actually for delving into this historical evolution of India style with its neighbors and also touching upon some emerging important emerging

[00:27:40] tunnel trends that clearly affect the region it is clear that these relationships have been based by a complex into play of cultural political and economic factors which now brings us to discuss how these dynamics have unfolded since Nareena Modi's first term as Prime Minister began in

[00:27:58] 2014 my question for Honourad is like in your earlier response you talked about the various facets of India's relationship with Nepal how despite many challenges the two countries have generally enjoyed a cordial relationship in the past but things have changed over the past decade so

[00:28:16] the relationship has since gone through periods of diplomatic tensions particularly over what Nepal considers India's micro management in its affairs how would you reflect upon India's role in Nepal since Nareena Modi came to power in 2014 I think it's got more to do with the

[00:28:34] less to do with Nareena Modi coming to power and more to do with the fact that India's own neighborhood has changed over the last decade I mean countries like Sri Lanka Nepal Bangladesh which were grappling with their own domestic conflicts have now moved beyond that and started looking

[00:28:52] inwards and focusing more on their infrastructures and growth they need have also motivated these South Asian countries to seek aid and investments including including from China I mean like the new power on the rise but on result what are disputes between Beijing,

[00:29:15] with presence in South Asia has now become more assertive is understandably also making India more a victory and it sees Nepal's relationship with Nepal from that prison as well and we know that you know my other colleagues might come back to this from their

[00:29:38] own own perspective but we know that India has already needed you know concerns pretty much clear to the Nepal side especially about India's strategic interest in Nepal's infrastructure and power sector and and also about Beijing's own ability to influence political outcomes in Nepal

[00:30:01] something that we've not seen before like coalition building now as an higher person I would see that this is a bit of a normal reaction from a residential power that wants to protect

[00:30:16] its own sphere of influence but I think a lot of common Nepal is believed that India is coursing Nepal to reject Chinese aid which I think is a bit overstated but Chinese aid you know even the Nepal

[00:30:33] side are now becoming a bit wary about the government is becoming a bit wary of our over-committing to the Chinese aid given that aid they offer a bit exoctant rates on the interest and also they kind of agree to fund projects which are not properly sanctioned through domestic

[00:30:59] you know consultation or domestic consensus or something like a panicked project so we've come across different African countries or Asian countries which have fell into similar kind of you know a quote unquote debt rat and then we look at you know our own latest pro far international

[00:31:17] care board which was funded through Chinese aid and there is kind of worry among you know Nepal government officials as well as those who are watching these in the infrastructure build

[00:31:32] being built as to how we are going to fund these infrastructure you know how are you going to repay you know such a huge Chinese debt and I think you know so while I agree that in

[00:31:47] government under none in the movie or even before that has always been very clear and state fast on its core security concerns but they have not always succeeded in convincing political parties

[00:32:02] in Nepal you know even prolong or make a man's you know to you know how they deal with other power so so there their jitteriness is quite understandable also I mean if you see over the last few

[00:32:19] years they have not been able to you know dictate the political outcomes as much as they had in the past so which clearly points to the fact that Nepal is also becoming more assertive in its own relationship

[00:32:32] in the neighborhood so I think it's a case of you know evolving relationship rather than you know looking at it from you know not in the movie coming to power and how it is shipping the bilateral

[00:32:44] leadership. A balance of this is it's you have you know a move in a more of a you know a trajectory and it's another fact that in another than any of the as come to power in India

[00:33:35] well clearly there's a pendulum shift from you see Chinese dominated sort of infrastructure the influence the heavy influence coming to political parties during the Rajapaksa time the political funding as well as the infrastructure built which was something discussed in

[00:33:59] I think in many panels as well as in the global discussion forums about Sri Lanka's you know white a different project such as the airports that was built without any flights which Anurag also mentioned the tip trap you know discussion so that's going on

[00:34:21] so this was actually captured during the last three years during the Rajapaksa time the last three years of Rajapaksa's in my book the Tehraop diplomacy all about the Chinese infrastructure projects and whether they were using infrastructure projects how much did it contribute to their

[00:34:40] economy and how was it impactful the impact of these projects towards India as well as you know the United States the how sort of the India views Chinese you know sort of growing influence in the

[00:35:01] in the island so what you see is a kind of a reset in that relationship from the Chinese towards the Indian side you have more of the Adani projects right now the Adani port development with the US for 35 million with the use government funding

[00:35:22] so you also have the wind power projects of the Adani the drinkably development again Dr. Jai Shankar when he was in the island last month so giving houses to you know basically different different areas of the country and so you you see tremendous significant

[00:35:45] Indian influence have from the infrastructure energy mainly from the wind power as well as direct energy purchase that is discussing about it and drinkably one of the strategic ports that we have which has been you know one of the concerns for the ultra nationalist of Sri Lankans

[00:36:09] from the 1990s that you know this port would be taken by India is now already basically India has started the development of the port as well as this surrounding infrastructure again what's going on

[00:36:26] right now is that all these factors would come up in the political arena which is going to be the elections in the few months time but the geopolitical context has to be also understood when

[00:36:41] it comes to Sri Lanka because the island nation in the Indian Ocean as well as the geostrategic location of Sri Lanka's importance when it comes to the Chinese vessels like the research vessels

[00:36:54] that was blocked by the Sri Lankan government for one year saying that the moratorium was taken by the government saying that you will not allow any Chinese research vessels to come in the research

[00:37:09] vessels that had a sort of a hybrid India has a concern saying they had a hybrid use of military purpose also as well as the hydroplofics service for submarine warfare so it was

[00:37:20] a concern raised by India which was taken very seriously by the prison government so you can see the while Rajapaksa invited the Chinese submarines as well as you know many sort of Chinese influence

[00:37:38] in different ways I would say to the island you see Vikramas Singhha kind of taking these moratoriums against China but then again questioning the US strategies also like the Indo-Pacific is an artificial construct questioning the occurs kind of using this strategic autonomy to a degree

[00:38:01] so this I see it for the first time that Sri Lanka is kind of exercising its own in our strategy called an omissing that look we need to work with Russia, we need to work with Iran

[00:38:12] so Iran in prison was in Sri Lanka the Russians basically on the Ukraine war the Sri Lanka's position you can see it's kind of a similar line that India has also has taken when India

[00:38:25] I mean the first visit of not in the Modi in 3.0 is to Russia and now this is not conventional I mean usually the Prime Minister would go to a neighboring country why would they go to Russia so

[00:38:38] I think there's a geopolitical context which is you know that that pride sort of posture that he wants to bring in Modi 3.0 is very clear from this visit he wants to bring in some sort of pride

[00:38:53] to the foreign policy of and this is clearly articulated from the literature which is of Dr. Zhashankar, why barred matters so I think it's a kind of a new shift that I see and the surrounding

[00:39:10] countries would also need to sort of take this into a serious consideration because whatever the India's immediate periphery would have to take up this you know what's going on in the India's domestic arena especially on the during the election time the Hindutva movement I feel written about it

[00:39:30] and more you propagate the Hindutva as well as minority concerns so it impacts the the region of surrounding countries because it opens a door to China clearly to come into those countries because they see especially the Islamic or the Muslim countries would see that I mean

[00:39:50] Maldives is a very good example where you see the campaign in the out campaign which was you know one of the main campaigns which we managed to sort of you know win the the popular word so in Sri Lanka

[00:40:08] again India's significant influence that's going on the infrastructure the Adani all this is going on but then you would have to wait and see in the next few months how it sort of would develop and

[00:40:20] how the the leading now the leading party the most popular party is a Marxist party for the first time again in the Sri Lankan political history you have the Marxist party which was called the JVP earlier

[00:40:34] was against the India on the 13th Amendment the evolution of power has now strike the sort of a balance within the air saying that they are kind of shifted their strategy also so it's kind of

[00:40:49] the new trend that you would see again with the that prideful posture of Indian foreign policy and Sri Lanka would happen navigate in India China as well as the United States these are some

[00:41:05] very fascinating insights and on developing trends especially thank you Asanga doctor in India as I'm coming back to you again like you said if there is one South Asian neighbor with whom Mozi government in India has enjoyed an excellent relationship it is with the Shikhasina government in Bangladesh

[00:41:25] the past decade has seen the two countries resolve the boundary disputes and increasingly better diplomatic security and economic cooperation in the major infrastructure trade and connectivity deals Haseena has been in power for a long period what has changed since none of the moly came into power

[00:41:42] in 2015 and how has that led to improved eyes? No I think it's a pre pre moly thing I think there's a consensus in Delhi on Bangladesh and the consensus is that yes Bangladesh needs India but

[00:41:59] India also needs Bangladesh and this has to do with the Northist India I think what Haseena government did was remarkable because they had serious issues secret issues in Northist India with the previous government actually made it more complicated the lot of insurgents groups including Ulfa members were

[00:42:23] roaming around in in in the Haka city they also is to operate bank accounts there were also allegations of weapons been supplied through you know different channels there were issue of 10 truck

[00:42:41] loads of weapons which was you know somehow they managed to keep that out of Ulfa but anyway so overall the you know that the point that India also needs Bangladesh that became very clear

[00:43:02] because without Bangladesh I don't think India can you know feel comfortable when it comes to not this security the Northist has his own problems with Delhi and we have seen recently how Monipur really you know the terrible violence in in in Monipur there are different insurgency groups

[00:43:26] in not this India so given that point I think there's a consensus in Delhi which started during Congress time when Monipur was in power and so what I think Modi did was to follow that

[00:43:41] up follow that consensus and that consensus still remains so I think in Delhi it's not only BGP who would be pro Bangladesh same would be Congress and same would be triangle Congress even the

[00:43:56] letter and that the BGP sent to know on the Modi on the issue of this I think she did a great help to one of these making very clear in a not to wait year after year on the issue of sharing

[00:44:13] because sharing is something that the West Bengal will not agree and the point here is you know the need West Bengal's approval because water is a state issue so I think you know in Delhi and

[00:44:29] and Haka there is this consensus and these consensus would remain so long you know the relationship with other countries based on development and there's a windwind situation as I said on the issue development are good example would be the infrastructure the pod the bridge which was quite

[00:44:56] news because earlier World Bank was supposed to fund that particular bridge but World Bank somehow raised the issue of corruption and all and did not you know fund that but that did not stop

[00:45:16] our prime minister she said will build that with their own money and here China comes with the technical support and delivered the pod the bridge practically on time so now when the bridge got

[00:45:33] built it's not only China which is got which would benefit I think benefit to remote India and also to to the United States because if transport on ready mid-Garmans you know goes up and down

[00:45:49] even the West would benefit from this infrastructure development so when you have in first Jackson development there is a situation of windwind now here I want to you know emphasize the point and I think Southish you would be good example not to see geopolitics from the

[00:46:10] point of view of conflict you say I think that is a mistake that we always do and the reason is quite simple because geopolitics when it emerged in the western discourse particularly have to do with conflict if you remember level from space and so whether it is

[00:46:28] Mahan or Makhinder and Jelen you know in name all the you know big geopolitical theories the all emphasized on geopolitics of conflict and the reason was quite simple because that's era where you had colonialism you know and massive colonialism you know

[00:46:49] colonizing as much as possible because that was the idea and you had serious geopolitical conflict and that got internationalized now I think two things has happened which is changing this scenario globally one of course is is decolonization you know you can't go back to colonialism

[00:47:19] so there's a decolonization and that has brought aspirations of people of different places to a point that it can't be reversed so you can't reverse the decolonization aspirations of India for example with more than one billion people same would be the issue of the African countries

[00:47:44] similarly would be the case with Bangladesh so decolonization now from decolonization comes and extraordinary development in capitalism and that is globalization now keep in mind that globalization is not something you know a lot of people would say it was there also in 19th century

[00:48:04] no those in 19th century you had internationalization of trade then of course international finance came at one time internationalization of investment came but globalization is a different economic structure which even marks or Lenin they even did not I think foresee and that was for the

[00:48:26] first time in history of capitalism production became international is the introduction becoming international was never thought in in the three volumes of capital and the four volumes of surplus value that marks wrote Adam Smith name anyone later on Lenin's you know book

[00:48:49] in realism the highest age of capitalism nowhere they thought that production would become international now today production is international what it means that you are tied up in a way which was not there

[00:49:01] in the 20th and 19th century so our whatever development we have done you know ready made garments as one as you know Bangladesh is now number two ready made garment producer after China though

[00:49:15] the gap is huge but still as number two keep in mind that bulk of the cotton comes from different countries including India China is Africa and then it gets processed here and then we have a surplus

[00:49:34] with Europe and you know states where we sell so you know it's a combination the machines is to earlier come from Germany now they come from China you know and other other countries so and it's not only with ready made garments it's with iPhone with SUV Bangladesh produces

[00:49:56] for zero SUV but it's assembling rather than producing so that is what I think the structure which has changed remarkably now this globalization or development of capitalism cannot be reversed you can't go back to something that was in the past yes Donald Trump would love to have it

[00:50:21] in in his make America great again but to produce a t-shirt in New York and to produce that t-shirt in silanka or in Bangladesh would put differ you know labor is and this is what

[00:50:35] dengerping understood very well and then that's how dengerping made a difference to China and to globalization and to China now coming to that what we are now seeing is this globalization and decoloration contribute into something what we call multiplicity now if you read his jashankers

[00:50:58] the other book the India way which he actually wrote before he became the minister of western affairs although he got published when he was in a chair and the India way makes it right clear and

[00:51:11] in time and again he talks about multiplicity the world is becoming multiplier and there's no way to change that and there's no way to change that actually yes the west is trying its best

[00:51:22] Joe Biden is trying his best native is trying his best but there's no way to stop the aspirations of billions of people you know how can you stop some of the polar look at well

[00:51:32] China differently is one polar in days a polar Brazil is a polar Turkey is a polar and I can go on and on they're all polar small big you know and this in this multiplier this is the first time

[00:51:45] the world is witnessing multiplicity on a global scale the world never saw multiplicity on a global scale this they had multiplicity in Europe they had multiplicity in South Asia in Africa but never on a global scale you know you had multiplicity there's a first time and that's

[00:52:01] the tension and that's the reason some of the thing times would say no no this is a balancing act or some will say oh you have to choose between China or between India or between China or

[00:52:14] US it's you know I don't see that I see because of decolonization and globalization what the world is moving well towards multiplier and that allows geopolitics of conflict to get transformed into geopolitics of cooperation and I can tell you series of geopolitics of cooperation let's take

[00:52:34] India and China they work together in bricks they work extraordinarily doing the Ukraine war and you know sung also pointed out why of all the countries in the world Modi

[00:52:49] heads off to Moscow at a time when you have a NATO summit you know the interesting part of that so India is giving a clear signal to the title that Jai Shankar had in his book the India way

[00:53:04] and you cannot stop that does not mean that India is going to tilt to Russia that other mistake we did we do just by going to Moscow would not mean that India is going to forget everything that

[00:53:15] it has within our state no I think this is the sophistication that is coming up you can talk it as a strategy autonomy but I will say it's a geopolitics of cooperation is bound to happen

[00:53:26] similarly they work together in well I say it breaks on on the Russia of Prince war not to mention also they are together on the Shankar cooperation near home they have all both India and

[00:53:43] China if I can bring in the China here India and China you know they work together on the issue of Myanmar they have been together on the Myanmar whatever was happening in Myanmar

[00:53:55] look at all the voting patterns in the United Nations China and India together now as we speak India's largest trade in regime is China it has surpassed in that state already so this year it's China and the other factor which people sometimes don't flag the number of

[00:54:20] students number of Indian students going to China is more the number of students going to UK because UK was that was the original now you know British economy has gone down things have spent have become expensive and not to mention this when it comes to science and technology

[00:54:43] China efficiency has increased so bulk of the Indian students since 2016 they've been going to China now this is going to have an impact 10 years after because they would be knowing each other so well

[00:54:59] so if you look at all those developments I think what we are moving into an interesting time and I'm not trying to say in the you know we have the Chinese curse that we have moved into an

[00:55:13] interesting time I'm here I'm saying you know you know in a simple English terms that we are moving to a exciting time let me put it that way is that this transformation into geopolitics of

[00:55:24] cooperation now how do we do that I think here the mindset is still not mature enough to work on the geopolitics of cooperation largely because we have all been trained and educated

[00:55:39] in geopolitics of conflict so if we can see you know that every crisis has an opportunity and how do we do that I can easily see all the countries are trying to negotiate in a way where to

[00:55:55] have relationship with all all the countries and I've said in several times I think the mistake of Zeranski was that he did not see Bangladesh's foreign policy principle before if you knew about Bangladesh's foreign policy principle friendship to all my life towards none

[00:56:12] I think Zeranski could have saved the country which is now in a terrible arena and you know one can see the future even the future is bad because of the heavy debt they have already gone

[00:56:25] into because of the billions of dollars of weapons been supplied there so it's an interesting or exciting times and I think here Jai Shankar I see he more as a you know as a tourist

[00:56:40] decision who got an opportunity to practice in this foreign policy and I'm sure Modi has all the blessing on on that and one can see the emphasis on civilization and he makes it very clear

[00:56:59] in his book in their way that is emphasis on civilization he learned from China he makes it very clear it's there in the book he said that the Chinese emphasize on civilization and rightly so because

[00:57:12] China is an old civilization in days also an old civilization and he makes it very clear that I learned this from from China and there are good reasons for us to have all what you call relationship with all

[00:57:26] and including whether we can have a multiplicity in Asia as much as a multiplicity on a global scale so this transformation is where I think our South Asian country is also need to work

[00:57:40] and I'm thinking India knows very well not to push to a point where that country will you know shift to the other polar that is the point and then this is Nepal or Sri Lanka, Maldives I think

[00:57:55] I think India has learned in a little bit in a better way not to push things to a manner where where that country will go to other polar because there are options are more so in this

[00:58:07] multiple or more multiple it is the marginal capital the options are more and the West has to realize that there are people who realize is that good number of scholars have come up and realize

[00:58:20] that but unfortunately as of now looking into the Palestine issue and the genocide in Gaza one can see the establishment is yet to understand and this allows me because of the military industrial complex that particular United States has so it's interesting times it's next

[00:58:40] setting times and I can the scholars have to work more more than ever. Thank you professor truly very fascinating particularly what sounds like a very positive in practical antithesis to the geopolitics of conflict in the multiple world so that's very interesting.

[00:59:00] I would like to now move on to the final and the most probably most awaited segment of our webinar let's explore the potential strategic shifts or departures in India's foreign policy under nine the movies third down I know we've all slightly touched upon this

[00:59:17] so on a rag after several years of diplomatic tensions in the Gaza relationship with India finally seems to be a bit more stable in the last couple of fears with nine the movie coming

[00:59:29] back to power how do you see this relationship unfolding on the economic front and on the political Nepal's prime minister was in attendance at New Delhi a few weeks back when knowing them

[00:59:40] with he was being sworn in so do you feel the two countries have done the page for the better how do you see it unfolding I think that's that's correct assessment Shivandhi and I think

[00:59:50] you know whether it's a you know old Indian Congress government or whether it's a new BJP government you know I think every comment that has come to power in India has always you know wish to have

[01:00:02] very good relationship with Nepal and the major reason for that is because you know our you know borderlands you know are so intertwined you know obviously there's an open border and also you know there's a lot of you know security implications that comes with those kind of ties

[01:00:19] and those kind of you know arrangements so I think you know having a very cordial relationship with government in government often extra layer security to the Indian side as well

[01:00:32] especially because you know India has for long you know you know you know complaint about a lot of you know counterfeet currency being you know you know you know being smuggled into India through

[01:00:45] open borders and also you know there are concerns about you know espionage as well as you know extremism you know fostering extremism inside India which has external things so I feel you know

[01:00:59] India does take relationship with Nepal very very seriously and I feel you know despite you know some tensions with Nepal is side especially you know we've seen that escalator during and around the time of Nepal's constitution drafting in 2015 which resulted in the blockade

[01:01:21] so I think since since that period there has been a lot of rethinking on Indian side as well you know and this is where we have to give credit to another more this government and probably

[01:01:33] Jason you know which has who has been in the thick of it you know for you know pushing through that rethinking on the Indian side so I believe you know that that rethinking has you know genuinely

[01:01:48] translated into improved ties it has not translated it has not improved the level that we wish it it should but nevertheless it has you know significantly improved so and and also given India's impressive economic rise I think the incentive that India offers to Nepal in terms of its

[01:02:11] developmental aspirations you know whether it is you know to absorb the surplus energy that you know in all my you know produce over the next few decades or whether it's to fund its infrastructures I think the incentive and also the lucrative in a market that India offers

[01:02:31] I think these are genuinely incentives that India has offered in terms of you know partnership and that those are the highlights of Maranamo this government and which I don't think there would be much departure on that during 13 year as well and on the political front I think there

[01:02:53] are you know slight deviations because you know I feel one factor that consequently is Maranamo this party BJP some elements within BJP and it's a parent party RSS the more you know hard Hindu work you know outfit and how it looks at you know South Asia in general

[01:03:18] and Nepal in particular so it's you know no secret that you know some elements within BJP as well as RSS you know dream about you know this you know and Hindu to a you know rise within South Asia

[01:03:34] and and to that extent you know they have you know sort of established ties across Nepal with the Hindu to elements that are you know active over here as well and that have become more active

[01:03:46] since BJP has come to power so I think but you cannot you know take that and you know define it as a Indian's official policy because we've not seen you know or heard any of you know those in

[01:04:02] our Indian Delhi or those you know in the ministra election of ours you know making those kind of statements are over cheers so and we also have to remember that you know the party so

[01:04:18] bit that you know the the the top leadership cannot take responsibility of you know every single leader making such statements now you look at you know number of you know communist leaders within

[01:04:30] our own country you know making some very you know on diplomatic statements when it comes to relationship with India and you know it does not define Nepal's official or in policy or even the

[01:04:44] their own political party so you know we have to see the relationship in that life and and I think the same would be true for you know over is he let's have BJP or RSS leaders so I think to sum

[01:04:59] it up I think relationship under current Modi government under its new tenure I think it's expected along the similar trajectory that it has you know in the last couple of years especially you know

[01:05:13] we've been providing deepening you know the courage to thank you one rag now back to Asanga despite this webinar being about moving 3.0 we have noticed that we haven't been able to escape China in the conversation so I'd like to explore the dimension a bit deeper

[01:05:35] China has been a major investor in Sri Lanka infrastructure and development projects over the past decade you've also mentioned that this includes the very controversial hand-bentotaport deal considering China's significant economic interest in Sri Lanka how do you expect the island nation to balance its relationship

[01:05:53] with India going forward and what role do you anticipate India to play in this what you have also described as a complex geopolitical dynamics during Modi's third term. Even I think to our foreign policy

[01:06:08] it's say we have no other option than balancing it as you know Sri Lanka at an online foreign policy just like most of this outation countries from the beginning but we sort of move there are

[01:06:21] japaksas move towards a closer China tilted foreign policy with multiple you know agreement sign strategy agreement strategy relationship sign during President Xi's visit in mind the Rajapaksas tenua then we had a military dimension coming in where the submarines coming in which was a

[01:06:46] serious concern for India so I think the there is the China dimension in Sri Lanka is all about balancing the whole of the leader is in who's going to be the next leader in October but what you see is right now a president with a coalition

[01:07:11] basically headed by Rajapaksas so it's a kind of a mix government that in place but again I mean people should know that the president President President has not been elected by the people so he was appointed when the previous president was removed from office

[01:07:35] so this is the first time again the Sri Lanka political history we have some model like this and where China well you see China again coming into the sort of play in Sri Lanka economic context when it comes to depth restructuring the recent announcement where China has supported

[01:07:56] Sri Lanka China was a late company in the depth restructuring but India was one of the first creditors to support Sri Lanka India's initial support gave a lot of confidence from as well as trust among general public that India came to the rescue with about 4 billion

[01:08:17] assistance as well as you know on depth restructuring China took a long time for for for the depth restructuring as well as in awesome support to come in but what you see is a kind of a shift

[01:08:35] in that Chinese like I earlier mentioned the significant influence but moving towards more towards India but India here there's a kind of a very cautionary I would say area that because some of the projects that India has involved such as the bin power project

[01:08:57] can give you an example so you know you try to do a lot of things in a very fast-paced manner because the space is there now for India but you might get into certain trouble just like China

[01:09:12] basically where public consultation has been less you know as been you know in the process of the environmental impact assessment so all that has to be considered because Sri Lanka is a

[01:09:25] very good case study for many other South Asian countries to understand where we went wrong in projects a Chinese projects and it is a very clear area that basically one by I mean initially each project where we have borrowed massive amounts of loans for example Hambantotapot you mentioned

[01:09:47] one of the components I have looked at basically there are several loan components that Hambantotap we managed to borrow be borrowed at 6.8% for one component which is very high now some of the scholars you know some of some they compare with the Japanese loans saying that

[01:10:07] Chinese loans are equal to Japanese which is incorrect Japanese loans have less interest rates as well as you know a conditionality is different the transparent so you can't just because they're all having Chinese loans about 10% and Japanese about 10

[01:10:26] 10% so they try to compare you should not compare and the main concern for Sri Lanka is comes on two dimensions one is a economic front on the geochonomic basically I mentioned where both India and China plays a significant role in the infrastructure development

[01:10:49] then you have the basically the geopolitical which I was talking about mainly on the ocean domain where maritime domain where there is a significant contest going on between India and China in the Indian Ocean so this will basically I can only see the trend from the

[01:11:10] basically the Washington thing tank that I am engaged here on South Asia they see more ships build by China than United States because of the the facilities that China has for building naval capacity and you can see the latest reports that capacity has increased tremendously

[01:11:37] on the China so you'll see Indian Ocean and literals such as Sri Lanka would have to face this contest and would have to do the balancing like Professor Emethias mentioned but you know you should not underestimate also the capacity of this small countries as well as the medium-sized

[01:11:59] countries because they have many other options one good example is Thailand. Thailand is now I read to join the bricks a treaty ally of United States so you have Thailand and Malaysia joining the bricks so you see there are many sort of options for these countries but certain

[01:12:22] options that you pick can upset the whole you know the regional stability which is it should be a very you know alarming thing and we should focus that you know these sort of things shouldn't happen

[01:12:36] and because the regional stability it should be the priority for all the regional countries of so I think Sri Lanka should I mean we learned a lesson from the economic dimension we became a

[01:12:48] bankrupt country how foreign reserves dropped to near zero then we had the the governance diagnostic basically of the IMF clearly highlights there was a governance issue not only an economic issue

[01:13:02] but there was a governance problem so again the the report is one of the first reports that came out of on the governance side how weak on the corruption issues mainly the large scale

[01:13:16] corruptions in the country so people are not so happy right now the general public because corruption has still not been addressed large amounts of money rooted from projects because there's no way of recommissioning or investigating the you know the the Roger Barkses so that's why

[01:13:35] the new model that is in place they're trying to delay the elections which is again going to be a serious issue which will bring instability to the country because people will be not happy at all if

[01:13:49] they try to sort of you know man who are with the democratic processors so India should be an example on the democratic processors when it comes so there was little there were many incidents on the

[01:14:03] democratic backslighting during the Indian election time that shouldn't have happened but India should be an example of strong democracy so I would I would see I mean I would like to say mode 3.0 where the domestic politics come in to sort of a moderate posture accommodating more

[01:14:25] minority communities as well as you know moving towards more stable India working towards the most stable neighborhood. Thank you Sanga I would also like to explore China with Dr. Eman Beijing has also been bolstering its strategic and economic investments in Bangladesh over the

[01:14:47] past decade particularly in infrastructure energy and technology sectors how do you assess Bangladesh's navigation of its political and economic relationships with the two regional powers being India and China and what can be expected of a Turkish relationship with New Delhi during

[01:15:06] Modi's third term as Prime Minister. I think it will all depend on Bangladesh more than China and you know I was talking about for the brief example for the bridge is not something that China

[01:15:26] wanted to do because Bangladesh having problem with wall bank and then since wall bank did not give that loan which probably was more more friendlier with less interest but Bangladesh did not wait and went to China. So I think to depend on Bangladesh how it wants to

[01:15:52] develop if it is on the issue of development of transforming the country to a developed country I think we should not have serious problems as we discuss. Yes there will be countries who try to

[01:16:12] bring more security issues talk about their own concerns and you know having their own outfits in different places and maybe tying up that if you you know if you want a larger

[01:16:28] investment so you know these are themes you have to do but as I said Bangladesh has always been you know very careful of not having any special security arrangements with any countries.

[01:16:40] Now here particularly with the West now here the interesting part is I think partly I would say this is a result of having a very good relationship with India because even India would not want

[01:16:57] Bangladesh to have a special relationship special security relationship with the United States for example forget China you know there's no way even with the United States India will not want Bangladesh to have a special security relationship and it has to do with the history in South Asia

[01:17:17] India has suffered because of Pakistan's special security relationship with the United States and so you know in some way I say Bangladesh is blessed to have you know to have a relationship with

[01:17:31] India in a way which would not allow the United States to middle in in Bangladesh and this became very clear doing our election as you know there's some deficit some concerns with the election particularly because the opposition did not participate and there were a lot of pressure

[01:17:54] from the United States to make changes and all but then India came openly and pointed out that no this is Bangladesh's domestic issue and it is Bangladesh's concern and the United States

[01:18:12] had to you know back away from whatever they were trying to do so so this is this is important how Bangladesh can play slow now there are certain problems and and certain structural problems

[01:18:27] and I think has to do with all the South Asian countries you know maybe some more some less and this has to do with the elite the policymakers of what I call the elite of the society

[01:18:40] bulk of the elite actually you know they have their one leg to the west because bulk of the children they live in the West and that has become a serious problem one is there has been a

[01:18:55] serious brain drain we have a you know big diaspora now in the West and some are very creative you know very creative Bangladesh is who you know become impatient because of the lack of infrastructure lack of access on a lot of things and I can understand that

[01:19:14] and and the leap and so bulk of the elite children like my university University of Dhaka is what then this is interesting University because it does not only given birth to Bangladesh in many ways but also created Bangladesh elite but none of the elite children now

[01:19:33] as I talk this study in Dhaka University that's the problem there's a serious problem because bulk of the elite they are in New York or in Montreal or you know or in London

[01:19:46] now if you have a structure of that and this has also to do with India then there has a same problem in the as elite if you remember during the Covid-19 special planes were used you know to fly them

[01:19:57] off you're so scared when the Covid hit the lead if you remember those some of the scenes now that's a problem and how how South Asia in the Asia multi-polar in this age of geopolitical cooperation will work on that because bulk of money laundering also takes place

[01:20:16] Bangladesh and money laundering is huge corruption is huge you see we never ask this question yes corruption is huge but we never ask where the corruption money is going and I think a

[01:20:26] songa pointed out you know about corruption in Sri Lanka the point is bulk of the money of corruption money does not stay in Sri Lanka or in Bangladesh if you're stayed in Bangladesh probably

[01:20:37] some casinos would have developed some hotels would have developed bulk of the money goes to the West that's the problem you know go to the developed countries so that's how you're going to

[01:20:50] and this is a South Asian problem I call it a South Asian syndrome how they're going to work on it I have no idea you know but one thing that I flag is that we need to bring the diaspora in

[01:21:02] the diaspora needs to be institutionalized in a way to help the countries including Bangladesh so I'm talking about Bangladesh a diaspora for example must you know yes I understand they have

[01:21:14] left but they should not be isolated they should in a work but unfortunately we don't have that we have to teach a lot of diaspora that to teach would be very critical of the government

[01:21:26] but not there are little bit of in IT sector certain things have are changing because this government here I think we need to invest in a way where the diaspora can also get

[01:21:37] connected and because I say as I say in this geopolitical transformation the opportunity is a huge if you can make good use of it so it lies with Bangladesh now since we're talking about

[01:21:54] Modi 3.0 three things I think needs to be kept in mind because that also impacts upon rest of South Asia one I think the third time Modi they need to address the gap that has come

[01:22:13] doing the Modi era there's a serious gap the rich has become super rich but not all have come up and then you have people who are rich showing their richness is this is very unsaltation

[01:22:29] and this has to be this not only I'm South Asia very I would say very non-Asian you know to show richness you know in any nations civilization you don't show richness but

[01:22:45] Slovakia sign I would know very well you the rich try to show the richness now when you do that you humiliate the people that's a problem and the Indians have really really made what you call

[01:22:57] yeah you know some of the in some of the constituencies religion did not work because you know the good one in the Ramjanam Bhumi is a constituency where Biji Bihit thought would sweep but

[01:23:11] that the lost even in religious constituency if I can give that word so because the rich the super rich in India were showing their richness and that is not something that humans like

[01:23:27] because it's humiliating and so they need to address that because that is one issue the second issue and I'll come back to the first issue again in different ways though the second issue is and I

[01:23:39] think this has already been flagged a little bit if I'm not wrong that you need that Modi third term needs to be less ideological because if you're hype you know ideologically I

[01:23:53] understand why they do that you know I can understand the rational of Hindu to and all because it has a word bank but you need to be very careful and not to hype it in a way and this is

[01:24:06] the third one which is interesting which I think is very important and an interesting area is the electoral reforms you see what has happened in if you look at the election results in the third in

[01:24:18] the three national elections that Modi owned the first time when he got the Prime Minister he only had 33 percent of the popular votes but through his alliance and all had two-third majority the interesting part okay or absolute majority the second time he raised it up to 36 percent

[01:24:38] of illiterate votes and got again to third majority it has the rest of 67 percent or 70 percent are not with him but a 70 percent are divided now this is the problem with the West

[01:24:49] Valley and illiterate system you know to some extent I think Sri Lanka tried to address that at one point of time but I think it needs to be addressed in a very serious way whether the West

[01:25:01] Valley and system can work in other countries or not it's not even working in the United States if you remember if you can see how terrible the situation has become with with your Biden and Donald

[01:25:14] Trump whoever has seen the last the debate between the two would really be horrified to see wow well are we sure we are in the right direction you know this is the superpower we are talking about

[01:25:28] so this time this is interesting this time the popular vote the BGP God was 36 again 36.5 nine person the change was only 0.8 percent now 0.8 percent change so many seats just imagine only 0.8 if Congress would have worked or made an alliance with the two with with

[01:25:53] with Nithish and then Babu they would have changed the whole whole structure now that is a problem because the majority is not there it's not like you know the French election or the Iranian

[01:26:05] election but you have two dire election you know sometimes in the first one everybody can get in and the second time only the two or three can you know go for election and you have seen the

[01:26:16] French results on the first balloting everybody thought that you know pen will win and you know the conservatives will win or the right wing will win and the second one it turned upside down

[01:26:29] the whole whole structure now I think we need a serious reform because if if India can do it I think it will have a serious impact on rest of South Asia if they can come up with a formula

[01:26:43] where actually you have a majority rule and this is the reason why Mahataganti was against this was a very insistent he said it is a heartless doctrine I am quoting Mahataganti he said it is a

[01:26:53] heartless doctrine because what it means is that and this is interesting what it means is that 51% can impose its will on 49% and I am against it now he said 51% now you don't need 51% you need 36.59% to get the government same thing happened in the United States in the

[01:27:17] he really Clinton got more popular votes but the presidency went to Donald Trump so my point here is this is area we need to work now Nepal I am sure you know not sure you know more than this

[01:27:33] on the average Nepal had a constitution you know every 10 years they have new constitution so I remember one particular book I was asked to write the forward and this was on Nepal and I told them that why don't you go for unwritten constitution better to go for unwritten

[01:27:53] constitution because written constitution doesn't work the muggles ruled South Asia without any constitution they had no problem 300 years you could doesn't have a written constitution New Zealand doesn't have a written constitution israel doesn't have a written constitution

[01:28:08] you go build by bill now that's one formula why I'm not trying to say that it can be done easily but I'm trying to say that you need to brainstorm this electoral reforms because

[01:28:19] frankly democracy is not working now that's one part of it but if you look at the members who are elected and I'm talking about Indian research and Indian parliament in the last parliament they had an on 40% member of parliament with criminal records and out of 40% 25% had serious

[01:28:40] declared criminal records that's one thing but bulk of them bulk of them are millenia in the narrow states 40% or 44% are milleniers now if are milleniers you should call it plutocracy not democracy this is the point is it doesn't make any sense you know because to get

[01:28:59] a nomination you have to be a millenier and that has happened in whole of South Asia so we should not be blinded by this system I think we should have our own system you know all the countries

[01:29:11] that I'm talking to whether it's Nepal or Sri Lanka you know India Bangladesh they're all all civilization you know we can go back to 6th century BC without you know way back you know

[01:29:24] we don't have to just worry we can just go to Mahabharov or even earlier and talk about the civilization that we have so from a civilizational point of view I think it is important for us to

[01:29:35] have an indigenous understanding of what this democracy is all about I don't take democracy as an imposition from the West I'm sorry you know that's not my understanding I think we had a far

[01:29:46] more you know if you can just issue of justice nay and knitting if you read Amortitions book on justice will tell you it's a whole thing in the justice has always been and the content otherwise

[01:30:02] how can we have Gotham Buddha or Ashoka you know some of the extraordinary you know thinkers and of course even Matagandi and not a mother you know you have the bowels for example we have an

[01:30:15] extraordinary you know he's building civilizational context and I think this needs to be evolved or this needs to be mainstream to the point that we do a kind of electoral reforms where we actually

[01:30:28] have people's representation and majority rule and can say you know I don't want to use the word majority rule that can have other dimension because then the minority becomes you know really you know

[01:30:42] in a problematic phase and and that what has happened is silanka that has happened in India now with the Hindu to case same thing with Bangladesh the minority you know having a tough time so

[01:30:55] this majority minority must go because it's in the mindset that we have we have built this majority and minority because everybody is a minority look at the four people that we have

[01:31:04] on this screen we don't look same our hairstyle is different in fact Asanga and Dr. Chaja can go for a majority because they're wearing glasses and if I bring my glasses yes we can you know

[01:31:19] sidelines Shwongi and say look we have the majority were wearing glasses so we can bring a glass nationalism you know so the point here is each of us are minority and this is something

[01:31:30] that has to come to the education has to come in our way we communicate and then we build a society much healthier and much productive so I think if India can contribute to some of

[01:31:46] these things and there are extraordinary scholars who are also thinking in the same way that I'm speaking I believe we can reach an interesting time or exact in times from now you know 50 years

[01:32:01] from now thank you. A very very thought provoking analysis professor Emma thank you so much and it leads perfectly into like the last round of this webinar because for this segment I'd like to quickly hear your thoughts about the recently concluded Indian elections and I'm particularly

[01:32:22] curious about the general public perception in your respective countries about not in the way and why or how he was voted back into power it doesn't have to be just your perspective simply reflecting on the public opinion back home because this is something that happens quite often in

[01:32:38] a bus I was just curious to see what it's like across the board. On rag you can begin please. Thanks so I'm key and thank you professor Emma for that you know very delightful detail around South Asian democracy and electoral system maybe we should consider adding another

[01:32:58] webinar exclusive beyond that issue but coming back to your question Shubhangi I think in Nepal we can't help but you know discussing in politics just like we can't help but dance to Indian ball you would numbers so you know there's so much of you know Indian media presence

[01:33:21] in South Asia that you know we are very well burst on on what's happening on the Indian side and rightly so because you know it does affect you know us on day to day basis and as a

[01:33:36] largest country in the region you know what India does you know domestic sphere also sort of spillovers into into our territory as well so when Naranamodhi was elected to power and the way

[01:33:54] you know Naranamodhi and BJP projected itself I think it did you know take a very you know you know it took kind of a center stage in South Asian you know discourse and still continues to do so

[01:34:10] but I think that the watershed moment for Nepal is you know you know increasingly discussing Indian politics came for two reason one is because Nepal after years have been preoccupied with its own domestic you know conflict and and constitution that finally you know are shifted you know and

[01:34:31] you know move to discussing more you know regional geopolitics and how it impacts you know how our own growth and development and India also being you know rising in power you know so obviously there

[01:34:44] was also a lot of interest you know from you know foreign policy observers on home the early site about you know what India is doing so that's there of course there are several there were several

[01:34:58] like it's that there are continues to be a lot of writings about you know Naranamodhi and BJP government in India on Nepal is siding in Nepal in India and both of those writings are about you know

[01:35:09] the kind of you know policy that India has taken this have been a fall you know whether it's related to trade whether it's related to you know you know visaviy China which also affects

[01:35:21] which also is a in Nepal in neighbour so and I'm also about you know how the civilized militaries that you know we were talking about earlier but some of those writings also talk about

[01:35:35] or you know issue you know express concern about you know Naranamodhi's previous in your as you know who's not chief minister and you know the kind of you know implication that if

[01:35:47] would have for Nepal in terms of you know how the Hindu to elements in India have you know try to you know stand this ties with those on this side so it's you know quite right

[01:36:01] the concerns are expressed in Nepal media to that effect but I think you know a lot of lot of that is more noise and and you know does not necessarily impact the way the two countries

[01:36:15] discuss or in case with each other but we need we do need to take note of you know the public discourse that is going on and I think the the last you know development that happened

[01:36:29] over the controversial you know map you know dispute between Nepal and India because there is impending you know there is you know continued dispute over you know orders on the western front between Nepal India and China the tribes of China the California tribes of them so

[01:36:50] I think that was another point where you know we sparked a lot of you know public discourse in Nepal and led to you know kind of tensions between the two countries so that has had implications on

[01:37:02] of it discourse I feel so other than that I think there is also a lot of anticipation and you know excitement especially among Nepal you know power traders or power producers in Nepal about

[01:37:19] between you know power trade between the two countries not just with India but also potentially with Bangladesh so it's a kind of a mixed back but yes you know how all the previous you know in

[01:37:32] them government this government is discussed more for various reasons that I have mentioned before thank you on rag what about you Sanga what do you think well I think the Sri Lankan polity also clear understood that I mean from the beginning of the elections that the

[01:37:50] Modi would you know clearly secure his target which is 400 you know reaching there I mean even most of the US scholars in here they believe that they would reach you know his targets but

[01:38:07] I think there was a miscalculation on the BJP political alignment you know on the with the voters especially to use Hinduism you know acceptance tolerance you know values to bring in the minority

[01:38:24] vote more more focusing on the Hindu的話 propagating and then the rest of KJWL and all that was as a concern in the US also you know certain issues on the US soil on the intelligence operations

[01:38:42] and you know so kind of a India sort of I mean not I would say coordinated in a proper manner all like going astray so that was the view towards the latter part of the election from the

[01:39:02] Washington it was a concern on the democratic backsliding you know and all that was discussed but Sri Lanka I think Kajatil was the moment that the entire public and the media got more excited on that

[01:39:19] particular news because Kajatil is a he's a long he's sort of you know it is it is already discussed and concluded it's it's it's not it's always come up during the election election time I mean

[01:39:34] the previous election in Kajatil was remarked that Modi makes and it belongs to Sri Lanka as well as you know it's been clearly you know those discussed with Indra Gandhi during the time and so concluded so I

[01:39:50] think the you know Modi playing to the Tamil audience was the main highlighting part in the side where the single is Buddhist especially the majority of the country sees India as always you know coming into the you know kind of sort of push the Hindu Hindu

[01:40:16] world Hindu movement all the territorial expansion so that's sort of you know the mindset which the majority see as a threat for the country so this is the same issue that most of the ultra-nationalist single is Buddhist see the evolution of power as a threat to the country

[01:40:40] and that's the reason that the Marx is also to you know we had two insurrection so the last insurrection in 1989 was on the the evolution of power that they were against that but it's quite

[01:40:53] interesting to see that same fraction is now tying up with India and now is the most popular political block right now because they're not been in power it's a very simple slogan that they use because they're not corrupt because people blame in Sri Lanka that you know the

[01:41:12] economic crisis yes that was bad mismanagement but then deeper in that is corruption so we need people who are you know sort of and the Marxists are the ones who are sort of the most popular

[01:41:28] right now so and the opposition party so there could be an alignment between the two because they're both talking against the Rajapakseh regime you know many people had to face the economic crisis

[01:41:41] even the middle class have sort of you know you know gone through a lot in Sri Lanka so what I noticed from my last visit is like you know the poverty rate has increased significantly in Sri Lanka

[01:41:55] and so all that all that would sort of you know a player major role in the elections of coming elections so how Sri Lankan's perceived the Indian elections was mainly on the areas on the culture as well as seeing Modi as a very strong leader emerging but

[01:42:17] there is of course disappointment when you know the what was expected was not received by Modi because you know he has not he has never had coalition governments so it's the first time

[01:42:32] that Modi will be facing coalition I know sort of a government as well as you know how he's kind of sort of you know to Manu his policies on his you know especially on the labor the nuclear there's

[01:42:50] lot of the areas that the west is looking at where the western you know companies could go into India and sort of you know working that environment so so I think they lot a lot of that would play

[01:43:05] in the you know in the next couple of years so we would have to see but yeah so I mean Sri Lanka is right now in the election mode so next week we will declare the elections on 17th on the presidential

[01:43:22] race so definitely it has an impact because the first party to visit Modi was the Marxist party so they were welcomed for the first time in need say it's sort of and what they projected in Sri

[01:43:39] Lanka was really interesting saying that you know we have the confidence of India backing us but this is the same party that was took arms against when Rajiv Gandhi signed the in the

[01:43:52] Lanka court so and the opposition leader is again a son of a former president run a single prima dasa so that's again another interesting factor something like Rahul Gandhi because he was assassinated

[01:44:13] in 1993 and then so before Rajiv sorry Rajiv was assassinated before and then primordas so you have yeah so it's again a South Asia dynamics but then definitely Indian elections definitely will

[01:44:37] has an impact and we'd have to see in the next few months how we feel today but I'm sure not well I think the media the corporate media got exposed this time I think the level of trust on

[01:44:54] the media has gone down I mean the corporate media has gone down to the extent that serious academicians or scholars they don't you know trust the news at all whether it's CNN or BBC

[01:45:08] you know I'm sorry to say you know there are wonderful people I'm sure but I think they have lost the they have lost this time a bit time and it started even earlier not not not with the Gaza

[01:45:21] you know you know side but even with the Russian Ukraine war myself I was absolutely depending on on the people who were there in Ukraine on the frontline sending messages at all analyzing things

[01:45:35] I was looking into the alternative media and all the discussions where you know from the beginning clearly point was there's no way Russia is going to lose you know the stakes are very high for Russia and you have seen how Russia has gained from this particular conflict

[01:45:56] and Ukraine somehow got destroyed in the process and you know how they will rectify that I don't you know it's very difficult unless there are changes we have to wait and see whether Donald Trump

[01:46:11] comes back with that that will have an effect on now with the Gaza it got posed even more I remember you know 7th October the attack took place 8 October onwards when the you know Israeli genocide started you know collective punishment we were getting messages and

[01:46:38] footage is from you know from from Gaza itself and this is the first time humans globally saw a genocide life you say genocide took place in you know in many places of the world including

[01:46:55] Bangladesh back in 71 when I was just a close 9 student and I witnessed the genocide but that you know it was always you know very few individuals knowing that but couldn't be flagged

[01:47:11] to the way it should have been because the newspaper was only one of the way you can do that but this time with the technology and this is where the TikTok played you know an interesting

[01:47:27] role and this is not going to stop even if you banned TikTok there are other TikToks you see this is the fascinating part of the technology once it gets out once it's inventor let's put that way other humans can do that you know

[01:47:44] it will never remain limited cake you can keep it close door for few few maybe few months or so and even with a vaccine COVID-19 vaccine you have seen you know several countries started making

[01:47:59] it and that's what science is all about and that's what humans innovation or creative the capacity that humans have once one human can do it you know others can understand and can do it also so media in India also I think played a role in putting

[01:48:24] Modi or BJP up and they were corporate interests you know they went up to the point of saying that he's going to win 400 BJP also believed it lot of believe but if you had contests and you know since we have contests with people we knew

[01:48:42] that they're not going to do that well yes they're probably going to win but they're not going to do that well even with West Bengal there were you know good number of other sources saying because that's our concern if you have fundamentalism in West Bengal then it helps

[01:49:03] the fundamentalist forces in Bangladesh so we have really careful and we get worried when they happen but this time I think it's a clear case that media the corporate media you know try to do whatever it was doing for its own interest whereas the situation was was different

[01:49:24] from out of that what comes I think limits of ideology or limits of what I would call extremism and you can't take South Asia and it's with all the South Asian countries you

[01:49:38] cannot take it to the stream you can take it for a few years maybe but you can't build a state in a very singular manner you know my definition of fundamentalism is it's a you know understand looking into the world from a singular standpoint and it can be

[01:50:00] religious fundamentalism it can also be a secular fundamentalism both are you know singular interpretation of things now when you have a singularity in South Asia given its historical given its civilizational context it is always remained plural it is structurally plural you know we can

[01:50:19] talk about different races and different languages and all they're all blended you know Bengali language for example one can be pride of you know Bengali but we have so many Turkish words and you know

[01:50:33] different words and Arabs name any you know influences you know Persian you know you can go to Iran and literally speak Bengali they would understand you go to Istanbul they will understand Bengali you know because so many words that we use that our Turkish and Persian and Arabic

[01:50:55] I just took given example not to mention now with even in English so you can call it a Bengali language but it's it's very cruel and I think with all the languages are that you know I can understand

[01:51:08] Nepali language and Nepali can understand Bengali very well because you know words mean we can talk about self as a Bangladesh she has a Nepali you know you can make it territorial but there

[01:51:19] is a South Asian element to our contests you know where we dress, where we the music is the best example the rug that the musical grammar the rug that you have in Lahore is the same rug you have

[01:51:33] in Colombia in Kathmandu in Dhaka the rug is same it binds musically we are all tied up this is an interesting part that we have in South Asia so given that context is not only South

[01:51:47] Asian in each of the countries that we have the modern state that we have built following you know British colonialism and all has always been very what you call multi-layered multi-focal and that is not

[01:52:04] going to go away you can put it there so that limits of religion or limits of ideology became quite clear another say only 0.8% shifting of words just imagine just 0.8 not a big one

[01:52:19] if you are a little bit more things would have gone in different direction I think they know what I think you would work for the opposition is the alliance you know the bigger alliance you have

[01:52:30] and that's what our political parties we have built through the Westphalian system it's an assembly we really don't have political party except for the communist party and the far right we don't have party party is not we have assemblies so Congress or BGP they're all assemblies you know

[01:52:48] they have interesting groups and subgroups within each of these parties so I I think since the media got exposed humans are extraordinarily very creative they understand what to do so in future

[01:53:03] I think people would be more looking into other kind of information other kind of sources you know whether and that's the reason why Facebook and other platforms have become more important because

[01:53:16] you can get information as I was you know I was looking into my iPhone the reason was our prime minister is in Beijing and everything is has been absolutely you know boom coming out

[01:53:28] what has happened what is this what are the agreements etc you I don't have to read a new paper in order to get that information is in Bill and you can check and double check with other sources

[01:53:40] as we speak so we as I say this is an exciting time that we have and I'm sure this will have an impact not only in bringing the South Asians together maybe at times there will be some

[01:53:56] issues but I think it will bring South Asians together much more in different platforms so I'm very hopeful about where we are heading to it's only that we need to change our mindset

[01:54:10] and build on that through our education through our media through all the sources from where we get information otherwise you get blinded and you might end up with much more you know hit full

[01:54:25] kind of a structure unfortunately there will be some of those things but as I said there are limits to extremism in South Asia thank you professor since we have been streaming this webinar on YouTube and on Facebook we have some questions from the viewers I'll just

[01:54:48] direct one question to us because each because we have almost spoken with each other for about two I hope you don't mind the first question is for on that so when the new Indian Prime Minister

[01:55:07] took office in 20 sorry when Narayana Modi took office in 2024 one of the first actions was to secure the release of Indian citizens who had been illegally recruited and trapped in an ongoing war in Ukraine however reports indicate that many other South Asian citizens including Nepalese were also

[01:55:25] illegally illegally recruited and trapped as a major power in the region do you believe India should have taken a more proactive stance to advocate the release of all illegally recruited South Asian individuals

[01:55:36] and not just those with Indian citizenship yes with the cloud or the leverage that India has currently with Kremlin I believe India could and should do more to secure the release of not just its own

[01:55:52] citizens but also you know all of you know citizens from South Asian countries but it does not mean that our government or in the sense there are a lot of Nepalese that are trapped as well

[01:56:04] it does not mean that Nepalic government should stay silent and do nothing on its behalf for instance you know our own Prime Minister was in India for the swearing in ceremony of Narayana Modi

[01:56:18] did he talk about this or did he raise issue about you know securing release of you know Nepalian national from Russia because you know India has excellent relationship with Kremlin I believe that it does not raise that issue significantly enough because if he had to

[01:56:37] have found its way into you know of the discourse through India and or you know even in some kind of you know briefing that Prime Minister you know made to his cabinet back home but we do not see

[01:56:50] that conversation anywhere you know it just seems like you know those people are doing them they have been abandoned by the state so this is this is more concerning for me but having said that yes

[01:57:01] I think you know now that India has already raised this concern with Kremlin and Kremlin is ready to you know facilitate release of you know Indian citizens and I think Nepalic side should strongly pursue this with the Indian side to secure release of its own citizens as well

[01:57:23] thank you Anurak the next question is directed towards Asanga what are the main reasons for the recent positive turnaround of Sri Lanka and India relations was the financial support during the crisis the turning point yes clearly the financial support was the turning point I mean close to 4 billion

[01:57:47] when it comes to medicine as well as food essential commodities and that that was a huge relief for many people you know we had long cues for you know for food essentials as well as

[01:58:08] gas and many other commodities so India was one of the first two comfort systems and when Dr. Josh Shankar mentions in his new book by bar of matters that this was again

[01:58:24] and a role for India that the how important that India sees Sri Lanka to stabilise Sri Lanka is an is a priority for India so he mentions this in his book and and I think the main turning point

[01:58:41] was the financial assistance but then followed by the sort of the you know different projects it comes to energy it comes to drinkably development transportation and many other areas so again Indian currency to come in so there are many sectors that open by the

[01:59:05] we come seeing a presidency and also the recent visit by President of we come seeing her where they had successful bilateral relations with Prime Minister Modi on many all those areas so including

[01:59:22] the reconciliation as well as the evolution of power which I mentioned yes I guess politics have you know all the interesting combinations I guess Bangladesh you know things that this is an issue that Indian people has to resolve what kind of government it shows that Bangladesh cannot dictate

[01:59:49] but Bangladesh definitely would love to have good relationship so that Bangladesh's main priority is of course development it's a seventh or eight largest country in the world you know 170 million people it doesn't have the infrastructure you know up until now there's a little bit of it but not

[02:00:09] to the extent it should so it's absolutely focused on development we have a development without enmity does the other thing we literally don't have any enemies you know there's no territorial claims all the territorial issues have been resolved with India with Myanmar even the maritime

[02:00:29] there were a lot of maritime disputes both with India and Myanmar but that also got resolved so as we speak we have a development without enmity Myanmar tried its you know Myanmar military

[02:00:42] to create an enmity between the two countries on the show Rhinga but we still have kept a very good relationship we have sports you know there's a tourism sector between the two countries

[02:00:55] you know well more Bangladesh is actually go to Myanmar than the other way but we have no stop our relationship with Myanmar with all even with other ethnic organizations who are now fighting

[02:01:10] and that has to do with our civilization also you know it is always open in a lot of people to come in don't forget the British entered South Asia or India through Bengal the only thing was

[02:01:25] the overstaying for 190 years but but even earlier you know the Turks the muggles you know the of guns and and they out settled here and then they became Bengal is at one point of time

[02:01:41] the manid locals lonely exception was was the British who got their wives all the way from Britain and that what colonialism all about and and took you know things to Britain if you go to British

[02:01:56] museum you can see all the things that they took from well whole of South Asia not only from Bengal so I think Bangladesh should say that it's India's peoples concern how they will change

[02:02:16] in what way but this particular election I think came out pretty well some relief that it was not you know an absolute majority of that kind because that would have given a wrong signal as I say if you have fundamentalism in India you encourage fundamentalism in Bangladesh and

[02:02:40] that's a simple rule but with the limits with the limitations that India the Indian citizens have really voiced and if they can continue with that and then this is where I point out that

[02:02:56] 67 to 70 percent are not with fundamentalist parties and that is where I think one should look but then you know one has to also give credit to BJP in terms of in for such a development they have

[02:03:13] made India into a polar so there are plus points though the gap between the reach and and not so reach have widened that's true but still one should give credit to the way it

[02:03:29] had hand as economy it has already surpassed UK and France and I think they have valid reasons to say why we can't be a permanent member in the security council I see many in that why should France

[02:03:43] and Britain be a permanent member it doesn't make any sense so I you know there are plus points despite all the negative things that we see at the domestic level particularly with minority

[02:03:57] bashing and all so I guess the lesson would be if they become more or if they become less ideological I think Bangladesh should be very happy that would also help the secular forces in Bangladesh but

[02:04:12] we let the matter be decided by Indian citizens and not Bangladesh thank you. Thank you professor thank you to all a panelists for your valuable time and contributions and thank you for joining us for this very engaging, very important conversation

[02:04:29] I'd like to remind our audience that this webinar is a part of the geopolitics webinar series organized by policy entrepreneurs in and we encourage you to visit our website and follow us on social

[02:04:39] media for upcoming events I'd like to request our panelists to be stay by standby as our streaming ends thank you all for joining and have a great rest of your day. Thank you.

[02:04:57] Thanks for listening to what's IPA, I hope you enjoyed the conversation in mode 3.2 is neighborhood still this conversation is a part of the PEI webinar series on managing India, China and the US in a new

[02:05:11] world order. If you liked it is episode please subscribe to our podcast also please do us a favor by sharing us on social media and leaving a review on Spotify, Apple Podcast or wherever you listen

[02:05:25] to this show for PEI's video related content please search for policy entrepreneurs on YouTube to catch the latest from us on the power policy and politics please follow us on Twitter at

[02:05:36] feed to PEI that's T.W.E.E.E.E.E.E followed by the number two NPEI and on Facebook at policy entrepreneurs you can also visit PEI.center to learn more about this. Thanks once again for me, Koshie we will see you soon in our next episode