[00:00:00] Namaste and welcome to PODS by PEI, a policy discussion series brought to you by Policy

[00:00:18] Entrepreneurs Inc.

[00:00:19] I am Prakat Karki.

[00:00:21] In today's episode, PEI colleague Subhangi Pawdal is in conversation with Rhea Sinha

[00:00:27] on a decade of neighborhood-first India's strategic shift and way forward.

[00:00:32] Rhea Sinha is an associate fellow at the Center for Social and Economic Progress in

[00:00:37] New Delhi, where she coordinates the Sambandh Regional Connectivity Initiative and co-manages

[00:00:44] the Sambandh Policy Dialogue.

[00:00:46] Her research focuses on regional economic connectivity in South Asia covering trade,

[00:00:51] logistic, infrastructure and border management.

[00:00:54] In 2022, she was a visiting fellow at the Stimson Center in Washington DC and a fellow

[00:01:01] at the Asian Forum on Global Governance.

[00:01:04] Previously, Rhea Sinha worked at the Bureau of Research on Industry and Economic Fundamentals,

[00:01:10] conducting research on regional trade, supply chain and trade facilitation.

[00:01:15] Subhangi and Rhea reflect on a decade of India's neighborhood-first policy since its

[00:01:20] inception in 2014.

[00:01:22] They discuss India's initial focus, strategic adjustment in response to China Belt and

[00:01:28] Road Initiative and regional expectations for enhancing connectivity and cooperation,

[00:01:34] including the potential revival of shark.

[00:01:36] Rhea highlights the new connectivity projects with the Middle East and Europe, economic

[00:01:41] cooperation with Nepal, especially in the energy sector, and collaborative initiatives

[00:01:47] with the U.S.

[00:01:49] She advocates for prioritizing funds and manpower for India's neighbors to achieve

[00:01:54] It's Vishwa Guru ambition and emphasizes in incorporating a feminist dimension into

[00:02:00] the policy.

[00:02:01] We hope you enjoy the conversation.

[00:02:31] a woman in foreign policy and to be taken so seriously and have so much going on for

[00:02:36] you.

[00:02:37] It's really amazing that you agreed to come on.

[00:02:38] So thank you so much once again.

[00:02:39] With the pleasure of all mine, it's an honor to be on the podcast.

[00:02:43] Great.

[00:02:44] All right, so let's get right into it.

[00:02:46] Today we'll mostly be talking about India's neighborhood policy in a reflection because

[00:02:52] it's been a decade since India's neighborhood-first policy was first announced.

[00:02:56] And so to begin the episode, I'd like us to reflect on India's neighborhood policy

[00:03:00] a decade since its inception.

[00:03:02] So Prime Minister Modi highlighted the importance of strengthening relationships with

[00:03:07] the neighborhood, particularly with a focus on different forms of connectivity in the

[00:03:11] region when he first came into power in 2014.

[00:03:14] Can you share the insights on India's initial focus and approach under this policy

[00:03:19] in the early years? And what would you say have been some of the notable

[00:03:23] developments since?

[00:03:25] Thank you for that question, Shivangi.

[00:03:26] That should be the bread and butter of what I do in my research area.

[00:03:31] And I'm happy to share that the last decade has actually been very good for

[00:03:36] India's regional connected development across a range of sectors.

[00:03:40] And this is a result of prioritization of the neighborhood through the

[00:03:44] neighborhood-first and ACTIZ policies.

[00:03:47] There are several areas, several examples that I can give over here, for

[00:03:50] example, in infrastructure development.

[00:03:53] We now have many integrated checkposts along the land borders with our

[00:03:57] neighboring countries, including multimodal integrated checkposts with

[00:04:01] Bangladesh today.

[00:04:02] New railway links are being developed.

[00:04:04] Six out of seven railway links have been revived in Bangladesh.

[00:04:07] We have the first passenger railway with Nepal and new railway lines have

[00:04:11] been planned with Bhutan, you know, first of its kind in the region.

[00:04:15] There's been construction of petroleum pipelines with Nepal and Bangladesh,

[00:04:19] better air connectivity with our neighboring countries, inland water

[00:04:23] where roads have been operational and cargo movement through them has been

[00:04:27] increasing. India and Nepal also signed a power trade agreement earlier this

[00:04:31] year, wherein India will buy 10,000 megawatts of power from Nepal.

[00:04:35] And beyond this, you know, beyond this hard infrastructure development,

[00:04:39] there have been other developments such as increase in bilateral visits

[00:04:42] in the region. If we measure it in the last decade, Prime Minister

[00:04:46] Modi has made twice as many visits to the neighborhood compared to the

[00:04:50] previous 20 years.

[00:04:51] Also, even domestically in India at the central level and state level,

[00:04:57] there have been many changes.

[00:04:59] For example, the Assam government has launched its own active

[00:05:03] division. Bhutan has opened a consulate in Guwahati.

[00:05:07] So we also feel like decentralization of the neighborhood policy where

[00:05:12] states in India, the border states in India also play a major role.

[00:05:16] Then at a sub regional level, there have been efforts to work through

[00:05:19] the Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Nepal sub region.

[00:05:23] Even though the motor vehicles agreement has been delayed, I think

[00:05:26] mobilization from sub region initiatives has been important.

[00:05:30] And lastly, I think important factors also include the private sector.

[00:05:35] The private sector has been offered, for example, a concessional finance

[00:05:38] team to invest in strategic infrastructure projects in the neighboring

[00:05:42] countries. And these are some of the examples of the developments

[00:05:46] that have taken place in the last decade, especially in terms of

[00:05:49] building. Many projects have been successful.

[00:05:52] Many are still lagging.

[00:05:54] It's not a 100% story yet.

[00:05:57] And therefore there is also now a potential for us to rethink after

[00:06:02] 10 years how we want to evolve our neighborhood connectivity and

[00:06:06] strategy and take a holistic view of all the factors needed to

[00:06:10] move the trend direction.

[00:06:12] Right. I mean, it's great that you talk about how India should look

[00:06:16] towards evolving the strategy, because my next question was, how would

[00:06:21] you say that India has adjusted its strategic approach and engagement

[00:06:25] in South Asia and the Indian Ocean region over the past few years

[00:06:30] to maybe counter China's growing influence, particularly through the

[00:06:33] Belt and Road Initiative?

[00:06:35] India has focused mostly on its strength in the neighboring

[00:06:39] countries. I mean, there's no doubt that China's engagement in India's

[00:06:44] neighborhood is one of the factors why India has also stepped up on

[00:06:48] delivering on its connectivity projects.

[00:06:51] I mean, except Bhutan, all of India's neighbors are signatory to the

[00:06:54] Belt and Road Initiative.

[00:06:56] But that said, China is not the only reason.

[00:07:00] There are political factors, there are economic factors to this

[00:07:03] approach as well, including India's own foreign policy ambitions in

[00:07:07] the neighborhood, the ambition of becoming a regional leader.

[00:07:10] That said, though, India cannot match China dollar for dollar in every

[00:07:14] infrastructure project that is going in the region.

[00:07:16] And therefore, India's strategy now has been to focus on

[00:07:20] strengths and on its own strengths and delivery of the

[00:07:23] connected projects.

[00:07:24] Development cooperation, for instance, has been one of India's

[00:07:28] strengths with the neighboring countries.

[00:07:30] In one of the papers that I co-authored with Dr.

[00:07:33] Konstantinos, we point out that India's immediate neighborhood

[00:07:37] accounts for maximum development cooperation that India gives out.

[00:07:42] And out of this, almost 86 percent is directed at infrastructure

[00:07:45] development projects in these countries.

[00:07:48] Additionally, among all of our lines of credit, for example,

[00:07:52] that India bilaterally extends to other countries, the

[00:07:54] highest has been extended to Bangladesh, which is today at

[00:07:58] $1.4 billion.

[00:08:00] Even during Sri Lanka's economic crisis, India extended an

[00:08:04] assistance of approximately $4 billion.

[00:08:06] But beyond this, India is also engaged in small development

[00:08:09] projects or the so-called high impact community development

[00:08:13] projects in the neighborhood.

[00:08:15] And these include building schools, houses, hospitals,

[00:08:18] providing ambulances, etc., which benefit the grassroot

[00:08:22] community.

[00:08:23] India also has an Indian technical and economic

[00:08:26] operation ITAC program, which has many officials from the

[00:08:30] neighboring countries.

[00:08:32] And as I previously mentioned, India has been delivering on a

[00:08:35] lot of these infrastructure projects, building land ports,

[00:08:38] petroleum pipelines.

[00:08:40] And this kind of delivery has become one of India's

[00:08:43] strengths because we've seen in the past, there were projects

[00:08:47] that would be delayed for 20 plus years and now we have

[00:08:49] seen delivery happen one after another.

[00:08:51] So that's a big change and the involvement of border states

[00:08:54] as I mentioned before.

[00:08:57] SART may have hit a roadblock, but India is also

[00:08:59] working through other regional institutions, Winstead, one of

[00:09:02] them BDIN, as I mentioned before.

[00:09:04] But another one of India's strategy, which I at least

[00:09:08] appreciate in my research is India is now open to engaging

[00:09:12] with external partners such as Japan, US, Australia, European

[00:09:16] Union for connectivity projects.

[00:09:18] This was a country which did not like the involvement of

[00:09:21] external players in its neighborhood.

[00:09:23] But today it's become a reality for us that we do

[00:09:26] need these external players, like-minded partners in the

[00:09:29] region to coordinate infrastructure projects with.

[00:09:34] And these are just some examples of how much India's

[00:09:37] approach has evolved in the neighborhood.

[00:09:39] It focuses on using bilateral regional external instruments

[00:09:44] to really deliver on the connectivity and development

[00:09:46] projects.

[00:09:47] I mean, that's a great overview.

[00:09:50] Now building on this, I would now like to ask a few

[00:09:53] questions with the curiosity of being India's neighbor.

[00:09:56] So like you mentioned, India is also a part of regional

[00:09:59] initiatives like BIMSTEC and BBI.

[00:10:02] And as the largest power in South Asia, India is

[00:10:05] undoubtedly has a lot of leverage with its neighbors.

[00:10:09] And the neighbors also look towards New Delhi to lead

[00:10:12] the regional growth and development and increasingly so.

[00:10:16] And while regional initiatives like BIMSTEC and BBI hold

[00:10:19] major significance for development aspirations of

[00:10:23] India's small state neighbors, would you disagree if

[00:10:26] I said India's neighbor expect more from India and not

[00:10:29] just in improving regional connectivity, but also to

[00:10:32] revive other areas of regional cooperation like SARC?

[00:10:36] I wouldn't disagree with you.

[00:10:37] I mean, absolutely.

[00:10:38] And why not?

[00:10:40] I would agree that expectations from India have

[00:10:43] increased from the neighboring countries and for good

[00:10:46] reasons.

[00:10:47] This has also pushed India to deliver on the

[00:10:49] lot of these problems.

[00:10:50] So I think it's a win-win situation for all.

[00:10:52] But India also needs to respond to these demands of

[00:10:55] the neighboring countries for two reasons specifically.

[00:10:58] One is economic growth in the neighboring countries.

[00:11:01] Before COVID, if we see many of our neighboring

[00:11:04] countries, South Asian neighborhood countries,

[00:11:06] we're showing a growth, economic growth of 6 to 8%.

[00:11:10] Two countries from the region, Bangladesh and Nepal,

[00:11:13] are set to graduate from the least developed

[00:11:15] country status in 2026.

[00:11:18] Today, Bangladesh is higher per capita GDP than

[00:11:22] India and it's been leading for the last four

[00:11:23] years.

[00:11:25] Bangladesh is today the fifth largest export

[00:11:28] destination for India.

[00:11:30] We're also negotiating a comprehensive economic

[00:11:33] partnership agreement.

[00:11:34] And there's also a major trade partner for

[00:11:36] other South Asian countries.

[00:11:37] So naturally there is a demand for more

[00:11:40] bilateral trade, more development projects, more

[00:11:43] infrastructural investments from these

[00:11:45] countries.

[00:11:46] But another reason is the increasing number of

[00:11:48] players in the region.

[00:11:49] Today we're in a scenario where India is not

[00:11:51] the only player in the South Asian region.

[00:11:53] There's China, there's Japan, there's United

[00:11:55] States, European Union.

[00:11:57] All are engaged in the region and different

[00:11:59] developmental areas.

[00:12:00] And therefore, India really needs to step up

[00:12:04] to the demands of the neighboring countries

[00:12:05] because if India doesn't fill that gap,

[00:12:07] somebody else will.

[00:12:09] And what kind of leverage does that leave

[00:12:11] India with?

[00:12:12] And India does have a lot of strengths with

[00:12:14] its own agencies, with its private sector

[00:12:16] that it can deliver on and respond to the

[00:12:19] demands of these neighboring countries.

[00:12:20] So I think like again, agree with you

[00:12:23] that the demands, I mean, I don't disagree

[00:12:25] that the demand should be there.

[00:12:26] In fact, there should be more demands.

[00:12:28] It's only a mark of a healthy development.

[00:12:31] Wonderful.

[00:12:31] Wonderful to hear that.

[00:12:33] I mean, apart from the neighborhood also,

[00:12:34] India seems to be championing its own

[00:12:36] connectivity project with the Middle East

[00:12:38] and Europe.

[00:12:39] Could you tell us more about that development

[00:12:41] and how it could probably maybe somehow

[00:12:43] also benefit the neighborhood?

[00:12:46] Yeah, with the Middle East and the

[00:12:48] neighborhood, there's been a lot of

[00:12:49] conversations on railway development,

[00:12:51] on port development.

[00:12:52] In fact, one of the important outcomes

[00:12:54] of the G20 summit was the signing of

[00:12:58] an MOU on the India-Middle East Europe

[00:13:02] Economic Corridor.

[00:13:03] And this corridor is aimed at facilitating

[00:13:06] multimodal trade between India and

[00:13:09] European countries, basically dealing

[00:13:10] with this and getting alternative routes

[00:13:13] to connect with one of its major markets.

[00:13:16] Now, this multimodal connectivity is

[00:13:18] expected to benefit all the associated

[00:13:20] countries in the region in the whole

[00:13:22] chain and for India also to show its

[00:13:24] expertise in railway development,

[00:13:27] in port development, UAE has expertise

[00:13:29] to develop complementarities in

[00:13:32] infrastructure development.

[00:13:33] But IMEC, when extended eastwards

[00:13:36] from India, also has a potential for

[00:13:38] connecting the economies of the Bay of

[00:13:40] Bengal region.

[00:13:41] And that's when this whole chain can have

[00:13:43] immense benefit, not just in the IMEC

[00:13:46] corridor, but also for India's

[00:13:48] neighborhood towards acting policy by

[00:13:50] extending it to the Bay of Bengal region.

[00:13:52] So I think there's both east-west

[00:13:54] approach, which is aimed at good

[00:13:56] connectivity, good development and

[00:13:58] economic growth.

[00:14:00] Now I'd like to zoom you in from

[00:14:01] the neighborhood a bit and explore

[00:14:02] India-Nepal bilaterally.

[00:14:05] And all that has evolved over

[00:14:08] the past decade.

[00:14:09] So has Nepal's hydropower capabilities.

[00:14:11] And we just spoke about, you just

[00:14:12] mentioned a while ago, energy

[00:14:14] cooperation between the two countries.

[00:14:16] So I know it comes with its own

[00:14:18] issues, but it has nonetheless

[00:14:20] captured the imagination of a

[00:14:21] section of Nepalese for sure.

[00:14:23] And so I'd like to talk about

[00:14:25] India's cooperation with Nepal now

[00:14:27] in terms of energy, as it is one

[00:14:29] of the most important areas of

[00:14:30] bilateral cooperation with clear

[00:14:33] benefits for Nepal in particular.

[00:14:35] While India too stands to benefit

[00:14:37] from Nepal's clean hydropower

[00:14:38] based energy, why is India, New

[00:14:40] Delhi insisted on treating Nepal's

[00:14:42] energy as a strategic product

[00:14:44] with seemingly security

[00:14:46] implications?

[00:14:47] Any connectivity initiative is

[00:14:49] also seen as a strategic product.

[00:14:51] It's not specific to Nepal's

[00:14:53] energy sector.

[00:14:54] Railway sector, for example,

[00:14:56] has also treated as strategic

[00:14:57] where we build broad gauge railways

[00:14:59] as compared to the standard

[00:15:00] gauge railways that every other

[00:15:01] country builds.

[00:15:03] So there is a strategic thought

[00:15:05] process that goes into any sort of

[00:15:06] connectivity initiative and this

[00:15:08] includes the hydropower sector,

[00:15:10] the energy sector.

[00:15:11] And today we are in a time

[00:15:13] where we cannot really bifurcate

[00:15:16] the economic from the security.

[00:15:19] There is ongoing border crisis

[00:15:21] because there's an ongoing border

[00:15:22] crisis with China.

[00:15:23] We know that India is competing

[00:15:25] with China on some of the

[00:15:27] projects in our neighboring

[00:15:28] countries.

[00:15:29] The increasing engagement is

[00:15:30] something that concerns India.

[00:15:32] So I mean, it's also

[00:15:35] a way to sort of

[00:15:36] have closer relations,

[00:15:38] have closer strategic relations

[00:15:40] with these countries.

[00:15:41] Like I said before, by delivering

[00:15:43] on some of these projects and

[00:15:44] if these and they will have

[00:15:46] strategic implications no matter

[00:15:47] what.

[00:15:49] It's just that countries have to

[00:15:50] find a way to work through it.

[00:15:52] Right.

[00:15:53] In another one of your recent

[00:15:54] analysis, you also advocated

[00:15:56] for greater US engagement

[00:15:58] on infrastructure development in

[00:15:59] South Asia and citing that

[00:16:01] US-India partnership

[00:16:03] and the Millennium Challenge

[00:16:05] Compact Project in Nepal are

[00:16:06] such examples where India seems

[00:16:08] to be closely coordinating with

[00:16:09] the United States at least.

[00:16:11] So are there similar

[00:16:13] and complementing development

[00:16:14] initiatives elsewhere in South

[00:16:16] Asia, where two powers of

[00:16:18] these two powers in particular

[00:16:19] have collaborated to support

[00:16:20] development aspirations of the

[00:16:22] recipient state?

[00:16:23] And do you believe that there

[00:16:24] is a need for India to seek

[00:16:26] and welcome more of such

[00:16:27] complementing initiatives in the

[00:16:29] region, especially if it can

[00:16:31] contribute to regional security

[00:16:32] and the recipient country's

[00:16:34] needs?

[00:16:35] No, absolutely.

[00:16:36] I mean, if it contributes to the

[00:16:37] development and security needs

[00:16:39] of the neighboring countries,

[00:16:40] then why not?

[00:16:41] And this is one of the

[00:16:42] change that we see under the

[00:16:43] Neighborhood First Policy that

[00:16:45] India is willing to engage

[00:16:46] with a not more external

[00:16:47] players.

[00:16:48] Japan is a fantastic example

[00:16:50] for this. For example, a lot

[00:16:52] of the projects that the

[00:16:53] Japanese government is

[00:16:55] investing in India's Northeast

[00:16:56] region, in Bangladesh, and

[00:16:58] actually complementing

[00:16:59] to invest own projects in the

[00:17:01] region, road development,

[00:17:02] road development, railway

[00:17:04] development, they all

[00:17:05] complement and build a

[00:17:07] whole network of corridors

[00:17:09] in the Northeast region for

[00:17:11] economic development, which

[00:17:12] also then onwards connects to

[00:17:13] Bhutan, also connects to

[00:17:15] Nepal. So these developments

[00:17:16] are taking place in

[00:17:18] coordination.

[00:17:19] We believe the countries

[00:17:20] cannot be involved in every

[00:17:21] project together.

[00:17:22] There are different standards,

[00:17:23] country-specific standards and

[00:17:25] norms to consider.

[00:17:26] So I mean, it might be a

[00:17:28] difficult scenario to think of

[00:17:29] India, Japan, for example,

[00:17:31] doing a project together

[00:17:33] because of these different

[00:17:34] standards, but we can always

[00:17:35] coordinate on the different

[00:17:36] projects and which is

[00:17:37] happening right now.

[00:17:39] US beyond the MCC,

[00:17:40] India is developing the

[00:17:42] West container terminal in

[00:17:43] Colombo Port, for example.

[00:17:45] US is also offered an

[00:17:47] amount of more than

[00:17:48] $400 million for the

[00:17:50] development of the West

[00:17:51] container terminal.

[00:17:52] So these are complementary

[00:17:53] to Indian initiatives

[00:17:56] in the region that are

[00:17:57] only going to strengthen

[00:17:58] Indian initiatives in the

[00:17:59] region while also

[00:18:00] contributing to the

[00:18:01] development of the host

[00:18:03] country.

[00:18:04] And such initiatives should

[00:18:06] be welcomed.

[00:18:07] Not everything is to

[00:18:08] counterbalance China in

[00:18:09] the region or done with

[00:18:10] that vision.

[00:18:11] That's actually

[00:18:11] counterproductive.

[00:18:12] The only vision is to

[00:18:14] counterbalance China in

[00:18:15] the region.

[00:18:16] Sure, that can be one of

[00:18:17] the objectives, but

[00:18:19] that's not the only

[00:18:20] objective.

[00:18:21] Right.

[00:18:23] Building on that, I

[00:18:25] wanted to get your

[00:18:25] perspective on the

[00:18:26] budgetary allocation for

[00:18:28] India's neighborhood

[00:18:29] initiatives.

[00:18:29] I mean, I believe it is

[00:18:30] a crucial indicator of

[00:18:33] the priority and

[00:18:34] commitment India places

[00:18:36] on its neighborhood

[00:18:36] first foreign policy.

[00:18:38] And while I was doing

[00:18:39] my research for this

[00:18:40] episode, I came across

[00:18:42] yet another article

[00:18:43] you co-authored for

[00:18:44] the Hindustan Times

[00:18:45] called India's

[00:18:46] Vishwa Guru ambitions

[00:18:48] need to be backed by

[00:18:49] resources, manpower.

[00:18:51] I believe that was the

[00:18:52] title.

[00:18:53] You argue that India

[00:18:55] needs to prioritize

[00:18:55] funds for its

[00:18:56] neighbors and that for

[00:18:57] India to achieve its

[00:18:58] ambition of becoming

[00:18:59] a leading power or

[00:19:01] a Vishwa Guru in

[00:19:02] PM Narendra Modi's

[00:19:03] terms.

[00:19:04] Can you elaborate

[00:19:05] more on that?

[00:19:07] First of all, thank you

[00:19:07] for reading the article

[00:19:08] that I co-authored with

[00:19:10] Dr.

[00:19:10] Konstantinos Evia.

[00:19:12] What we argue in

[00:19:14] what we argued in

[00:19:14] that article is that

[00:19:15] while India has

[00:19:16] ambitions to become

[00:19:17] a regional leader,

[00:19:19] a Vishwa Guru,

[00:19:20] or a Vishwa Bandhu,

[00:19:21] the government will

[00:19:22] have to invest heavily

[00:19:24] in upgrading

[00:19:25] the Ministry of

[00:19:25] External Affairs,

[00:19:26] human and financial

[00:19:27] resources.

[00:19:29] If you look at the

[00:19:30] last few years,

[00:19:31] India's public share

[00:19:32] has been increasing

[00:19:33] only markedly by

[00:19:34] 3 to 4 percents.

[00:19:35] Our diplomats are

[00:19:36] increasingly over-

[00:19:37] stretched.

[00:19:38] We have just about

[00:19:39] 1000 diplomats,

[00:19:40] which is the same

[00:19:41] size as Portugal,

[00:19:42] New Zealand and

[00:19:43] just smaller than

[00:19:44] Singapore.

[00:19:45] Therefore, there is

[00:19:46] a need to expand

[00:19:47] the both generalist

[00:19:48] and expert cardinal

[00:19:49] to deal with

[00:19:50] a complex range of

[00:19:51] policy domain from

[00:19:52] emerging tech,

[00:19:53] critical minerals,

[00:19:54] energy security.

[00:19:55] These are the areas

[00:19:56] where India

[00:19:57] has security issues

[00:19:58] in today's standard.

[00:19:59] And the MEA needs

[00:20:00] to keep up with that.

[00:20:01] And the neighbourhood

[00:20:02] will need to be

[00:20:03] prioritized in all of this

[00:20:04] because India is

[00:20:05] expanding its projects

[00:20:06] in the region.

[00:20:07] It will have to

[00:20:08] increase its financial

[00:20:09] allocation to the

[00:20:10] neighbourhood.

[00:20:11] But that, it needs

[00:20:12] a well-capacitated

[00:20:13] MEA, a huge network

[00:20:14] of diplomats

[00:20:15] to deliver on

[00:20:16] India's commitments.

[00:20:17] Right.

[00:20:18] This has been great

[00:20:19] so far and

[00:20:20] we are very happy

[00:20:21] that we have

[00:20:22] reached this point

[00:20:23] and that we have

[00:20:24] reached this point

[00:20:25] and that we have

[00:20:26] been great so far

[00:20:27] and we have come,

[00:20:28] I can't believe

[00:20:29] I mean time has

[00:20:30] literally flown by

[00:20:31] but we have come

[00:20:32] towards the end of

[00:20:33] the podcast.

[00:20:34] And the last question

[00:20:35] is one that is

[00:20:36] a bit close to my heart

[00:20:37] as well.

[00:20:38] Through your work

[00:20:39] you have often

[00:20:40] emphasized that the

[00:20:41] inclusion of a

[00:20:42] feminist dimension

[00:20:43] in India's

[00:20:44] neighbourhood first policy

[00:20:45] highlighting the need

[00:20:46] to centralize the

[00:20:47] role of women

[00:20:48] in order to better

[00:20:49] achieve regional interests.

[00:20:50] This is a topic

[00:20:51] that energizes me

[00:20:52] personally so I am

[00:20:53] curious to know.

[00:20:54] How can the India's

[00:20:55] policy be

[00:20:56] innovatively shaped

[00:20:57] to centralize the

[00:20:58] role of women

[00:20:59] and adopt a

[00:21:00] feminist and gender

[00:21:01] sensitive approach

[00:21:02] in line with its

[00:21:03] foreign policy

[00:21:04] tradition of

[00:21:05] democratic realism

[00:21:06] and what concrete

[00:21:07] policy measures

[00:21:08] can India undertake

[00:21:09] to promote

[00:21:10] political diversity,

[00:21:11] social inclusiveness,

[00:21:12] regional stability,

[00:21:13] development and

[00:21:14] security.

[00:21:15] While emphasizing

[00:21:16] the importance of

[00:21:17] women's participation

[00:21:18] and empowerment

[00:21:19] in the region.

[00:21:20] Thank you and I am

[00:21:21] glad to hear

[00:21:22] that you feel

[00:21:23] so strongly about

[00:21:24] this as well.

[00:21:25] I mean in my

[00:21:26] career I have been

[00:21:27] in rooms where

[00:21:28] I was the only

[00:21:29] woman talking

[00:21:30] about these issues

[00:21:31] on infrastructure,

[00:21:32] on trade,

[00:21:33] on logistics.

[00:21:34] So you know

[00:21:35] this is something

[00:21:36] that is always

[00:21:37] very close to my heart

[00:21:38] too.

[00:21:39] To get back

[00:21:40] to your question

[00:21:41] I think I will answer

[00:21:42] both your questions

[00:21:43] together.

[00:21:44] See South Asia

[00:21:45] with its history

[00:21:46] of war, border

[00:21:47] conflicts is a

[00:21:48] difficult place

[00:21:49] for India to

[00:21:50] practice its

[00:21:51] feminist foreign policy.

[00:21:52] But then

[00:21:53] there is

[00:21:54] scope for rethinking

[00:21:55] and adoption

[00:21:56] of policy measures

[00:21:57] that ensure

[00:21:58] participation

[00:21:59] of women

[00:22:00] and other

[00:22:01] marginalized

[00:22:02] groups in the

[00:22:03] exercise of

[00:22:04] foreign policy.

[00:22:05] And there are

[00:22:06] a few areas

[00:22:07] where India

[00:22:08] can focus on

[00:22:09] for doing this.

[00:22:10] One is through

[00:22:11] development cooperation

[00:22:12] particularly through

[00:22:13] these high impact

[00:22:14] community

[00:22:15] development projects.

[00:22:16] India could

[00:22:17] increase support

[00:22:18] to these

[00:22:19] proposals dedicated

[00:22:20] to gender equality,

[00:22:21] fair opportunities

[00:22:22] and when India

[00:22:23] does impact assessment

[00:22:24] of these projects

[00:22:25] as well

[00:22:26] it should also

[00:22:27] use a marker

[00:22:28] to identify

[00:22:29] how this has

[00:22:30] benefited women

[00:22:31] and other marginalized

[00:22:32] groups

[00:22:33] so that this can

[00:22:34] be adopted

[00:22:35] to future

[00:22:36] community development

[00:22:37] projects as well.

[00:22:38] Another area

[00:22:39] is cross border trade.

[00:22:40] Most of these

[00:22:41] especially in land

[00:22:42] border trade

[00:22:43] most of these

[00:22:44] land ports

[00:22:45] are located

[00:22:46] in difficult

[00:22:47] to access areas

[00:22:48] where there is

[00:22:49] no road

[00:22:50] or public transportation

[00:22:51] and there also

[00:22:52] the officials

[00:22:53] posted in these

[00:22:54] areas there is a lack

[00:22:55] of gender sensitization

[00:22:56] among border

[00:22:57] authorities.

[00:22:58] So these are the

[00:22:59] areas where

[00:23:00] India really

[00:23:01] needs to work on

[00:23:02] the land ports

[00:23:03] authority of India

[00:23:04] in fact is doing

[00:23:05] some work on this

[00:23:06] but more work

[00:23:07] needs to be done

[00:23:08] to make sure

[00:23:09] that there is

[00:23:10] equal opportunity

[00:23:11] to trade

[00:23:12] for every group

[00:23:13] and one of the

[00:23:14] suggestions how

[00:23:15] this can be done

[00:23:16] is through

[00:23:17] digitization

[00:23:18] of trade procedures.

[00:23:19] What happens

[00:23:20] is that

[00:23:21] for clearance

[00:23:22] one agency

[00:23:23] is seated close

[00:23:24] to the border

[00:23:25] the second agency

[00:23:26] might be

[00:23:27] seated 10 kilometers

[00:23:28] away.

[00:23:29] So and you

[00:23:30] need to physically

[00:23:31] go to all of

[00:23:32] these to clear

[00:23:33] your cardboard.

[00:23:34] By digitization

[00:23:35] a lot of these

[00:23:36] processes can

[00:23:37] be done online

[00:23:38] it can be

[00:23:39] easily accessible

[00:23:40] to women

[00:23:41] and therefore

[00:23:42] the conductive trade

[00:23:43] can remain

[00:23:44] very easy.

[00:23:45] Finally the last

[00:23:46] area where India

[00:23:47] can focus on

[00:23:48] is health cooperation

[00:23:49] and the irony

[00:23:50] in the region

[00:23:51] is said while

[00:23:52] women form

[00:23:53] a significant

[00:23:54] portion of

[00:23:55] the healthcare

[00:23:56] workers

[00:23:57] women and

[00:23:58] children are

[00:23:59] not

[00:24:00] they continue

[00:24:01] to face

[00:24:02] health disparities

[00:24:03] and are

[00:24:04] not prioritized

[00:24:05] in the

[00:24:06] policy space.

[00:24:07] Therefore there

[00:24:08] is a need

[00:24:09] to put together

[00:24:10] a gender

[00:24:11] sensitive

[00:24:12] health cooperation

[00:24:13] high on the

[00:24:14] agenda.

[00:24:15] India already

[00:24:16] engages in

[00:24:17] capacity building

[00:24:18] and

[00:24:19] I don't just mean

[00:24:20] women like

[00:24:21] I mean every

[00:24:22] group every

[00:24:23] marginalized

[00:24:24] into the

[00:24:25] training

[00:24:26] program.

[00:24:27] And India can

[00:24:28] do this it

[00:24:29] has been

[00:24:30] pushing for an

[00:24:31] increasingly

[00:24:32] progressive and

[00:24:33] feminist foreign

[00:24:34] policy at a

[00:24:35] global level

[00:24:36] and it's just

[00:24:37] time to

[00:24:38] replicate those

[00:24:39] in our

[00:24:40] neighborhood.

[00:24:41] Yeah I mean usually

[00:24:42] when you put

[00:24:43] foreign policy

[00:24:44] and feminist

[00:24:45] together people

[00:24:46] think it's

[00:24:47] a good

[00:24:48] thing to

[00:24:49] do.

[00:24:50] So I think

[00:24:51] that's

[00:24:52] a good

[00:24:53] thing to

[00:24:54] do.

[00:24:55] Thank you so

[00:24:56] much for

[00:24:57] detailing

[00:24:58] that.

[00:24:59] Yeah absolutely

[00:25:00] it has

[00:25:01] implications in

[00:25:02] every

[00:25:03] sector so

[00:25:04] this is something

[00:25:05] people

[00:25:06] need to

[00:25:07] think about

[00:25:08] and

[00:25:09] I thank you

[00:25:10] for giving

[00:25:11] such a

[00:25:12] wonderful

[00:25:13] explanation.

[00:25:14] This conversation

[00:25:15] has given

[00:25:16] a pleasure.

[00:25:17] Thank you so

[00:25:18] much Rhea and

[00:25:19] we'll be in

[00:25:20] touch.

[00:25:21] Thank you very

[00:25:22] much.

[00:25:23] Thanks for listening to

[00:25:25] Pods by

[00:25:26] P.I.

[00:25:27] I hope you enjoy

[00:25:28] Subangi's

[00:25:29] conversation with

[00:25:30] Rhea on a

[00:25:31] decade of

[00:25:32] neighborhood first

[00:25:33] India's

[00:25:34] strategic shift

[00:25:35] and way

[00:25:36] forward.

[00:25:37] Today's

[00:25:38] episode was

[00:25:39] produced by

[00:25:40] Nirjan Rai

[00:25:41] with support from

[00:25:42] Khushi Hang

[00:25:43] and Ridesh

[00:25:44] Sapkota.

[00:25:45] Our theme

[00:25:46] music is courtesy

[00:25:47] of Rohit

[00:25:48] from Zindabad.

[00:25:49] If you like

[00:25:50] today's episode

[00:25:51] please subscribe to

[00:25:52] our podcast.

[00:25:53] Also please

[00:25:54] do us a favor

[00:25:55] by sharing

[00:25:56] us on social

[00:25:57] media and leave

[00:25:58] a review

[00:25:59] on Spotify,

[00:26:00] Apple Podcasts,

[00:26:01] Google Podcasts

[00:26:02] or wherever

[00:26:03] you listen

[00:26:04] to the show.

[00:26:05] For P.I.'s

[00:26:06] video related

[00:26:07] content please

[00:26:08] search for

[00:26:09] policy entrepreneurs

[00:26:10] on YouTube.

[00:26:11] To catch

[00:26:12] the latest

[00:26:13] from us on

[00:26:14] YouTube

[00:26:15] please visit

[00:26:16] policyentrepreneurs.com

[00:26:17] to P.I.

[00:26:18] That's tweet

[00:26:19] followed by

[00:26:20] the number 2

[00:26:21] and P.I.

[00:26:22] And on

[00:26:23] Facebook at

[00:26:24] policy

[00:26:25] entrepreneurs

[00:26:26] Inc.

[00:26:27] You can also

[00:26:28] visit

[00:26:29] P.I.

[00:26:30] dot center

[00:26:31] to learn

[00:26:32] more about us.

[00:26:33] Thanks once

[00:26:34] again from me

[00:26:35] Prakatikarki.

[00:26:36] We will see you

[00:26:37] soon in our

[00:26:38] next

[00:26:39] episode.