Dilrukshi Handunnetti on Thinking Sri Lanka: Recalling Legacies of Conflict, Domestic Politics, and Aid

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Namaste and welcome to PODS by PEI, a policy discussion series brought to you by Policy

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Entrepreneurs Inc.

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I am Ridesh Apkota.

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_00]: In today's episode, PEI colleague Susabh Nirawala is in conversation with Sri Lankan investigative

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_00]: journalist Dil Rukshi Hanboniti on thinking Sri Lanka, recalling legacies of conflict, domestic

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_00]: politics and aid.

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Dil Rukshi is an international award-winning investigative journalist and a lawyer from

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Sri Lanka.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_00]: She has worked extensively across South Asia as an on-ground reporter and trainer.

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_00]: As an investigative journalist, she has broken stories on grand corruption and crime,

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_00]: conflict and communities and dedicated significant time to reporting on women, children, health

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and the environment.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_00]: As a recipient of many prestigious journalism fellowships, she won the coveted WAS Media Award

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_00]: in 2014.

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: She was also the Sri Lankan journalist of the year in 2012.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Susabh and Dil Rukshi discuss Sri Lanka's complex socio-political history including

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_00]: its violent ethnic conflict and colonial legacy, exploring the rules of various events

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_00]: in shaping its identity.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Drawing simultaneously from her work and her lived experience of the war, Dil Rukshi

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_00]: illustrates the political roots of the conflict, reflecting on civil war's impact and quest

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_00]: for ethnic minority rights, including the rise of groups like the LTTE.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_00]: They also examine international influence notably from India, China and the West on

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Sri Lanka's political landscape and review its governance challenges, human rights issues

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and economic reforms.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_00]: The dialogue concludes on the reflections on Sri Lanka's civic space, civil society,

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_00]: press freedom and the broader South Asian context of handling dissent and nurturing democratic

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_00]: spaces.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_00]: We hope you enjoy the conversation.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_04]: The idea amongst others, Dil Rukshi was principally here for that but I couldn't resist the opportunity

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_04]: of her presence to discuss about Sri Lanka.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Sri Lanka and Nepal share a lot in common issues like ethnic politics, conversation around

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_04]: post-war or post-conflict reconciliation, managing relationship between India and China,

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_04]: conversations around donors and development, common questions regarding accountability

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_04]: and corruptions with our respective governments.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_04]: These are questions that we share.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_04]: I understand that we cannot cover all these conversations in one setting.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_04]: We'll focus around the issue of ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka but alongside doing that, we'll

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_04]: also touch on other common aspects that we, Nepal and Sri Lanka share.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_04]: So let's get right at it.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Throughout Nepali listeners especially, can you share a bit of history about Sri Lanka?

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_04]: By that I mean when does the period of modern nation state of Sri Lanka as we know today

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_04]: begin from, is it 1948 when Sri Lanka became independent from the Britishers or are there

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_04]: other crucial points?

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, Sri Lanka is one of the oldest democracies in South Asia but the modern

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_02]: nation state as you mentioned dates back to 1948 and we were colonized by the British

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and following Indian independence.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: A few months later Sri Lanka was also declared independent and of Indian, different to Indian

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_02]: independence struggle, Sri Lanka was very different.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Sri Lankan independence struggle was an intellectual one.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_02]: That was about bargaining with the British and using India to leverage and there was

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_02]: no bloodletting in Sri Lanka but I think we were beneficiaries of the Indian struggle

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and so the modern state was born in 1948.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Before 1948, were you guys divided into small kingdoms or were you?

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, we had Ruhu No, Pehiti and Maya and provincial kings ruled.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So lots being said about power devolution and I think Sri Lanka knew power devolution when

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_02]: you had provincial kings but at times it has been unified by different kings, the entirety

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_02]: of Sri Lanka but 1948 of course was a watershed moment and it created the modern salon

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and then we became Sri Lanka.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Getting along this conversation of identity and conflict, I wanted to understand what

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_04]: were the major factors that led to the civil war in 1983?

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_04]: How did that deal up?

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_04]: As we know, Sri Lanka civil war went on from 1983 to 2009 and claimed more than 80,000

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_04]: lives so I just wanted to understand what was the starting point of all that conflict

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_04]: what led to it.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so that also has some history and I think besides the territorial question,

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_02]: the language do has been a huge one.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_02]: The Singhala language policy which was driven by SWRD Bandar Nairnaika who was a plural man,

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_02]: a democrat but I think the politics of the day went against him and in a weak moment

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_02]: this policy was introduced and then with that single stroke of division when your language

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_02]: becomes the second best and gets reduced.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the language played a huge part and then we had the Republican constitution in 1972

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and the Tamils also felt that they were losing out a lot through that and all of that collectively,

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_02]: so it's now one single moment, one single incident.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Then in 1976 we saw the proliferation of political groups, dissenters,

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_02]: you can call them resistance groups and they got armed.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_02]: The TOLF, Tamil United Liberation Fund was the first and then there was a crop of other

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_02]: resistance groups and they got armed and they got trained in South India so that you know it's never

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_02]: really been- South India.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, of course the camps are in South India and then you have this whole tension within

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_02]: your country and there is a real connection to your neighboring country because there is

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_02]: this support for identity and it drives a certain political interest and even a wedge

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_02]: between the two large ethnic groups in the country so then we come to 83.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_02]: So you have resistance groups and you may call them rebel, you know whatever,

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_02]: resistance, insurgents, all kinds of terminologies used around them and then there is this military

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_02]: engagements.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_02]: In 1983 the LTD Liberation Tigers of Tamil Ilam killed 13 soldiers and then the state,

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_02]: the Colombo Singhala State made sure that there was a program of obviously and then there

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_02]: was violence that targeted Tamils.

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember this, I was a kid and I remember that and it was so senseless.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I never understood but I still remember the buildings burning and in my mind there is still

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_02]: this car turn upwards and it's like consumed in flames.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_02]: That whole senselessness of it all and the fear of people, something's really changed

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_02]: that day, that month, 83 July and I don't think we have ever really rebuked our relationship.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_04]: The language policy, Singhala only language policy I think it was recognized as the

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_04]: official language while not giving the similar status to Tamil language right?

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And another issue was also the state was also colonizing, this is how the Tamils would

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_02]: colonizing the saying hello governments called it settlement and development projects like the

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Gallaway project in the North Central province.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So you have people, the Singhala is being settled in what the Tamils felt were originally

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_02]: the lands that they occupied.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_04]: I see now I want to take this conversation and focus on how a particular Tamil militant

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_04]: organization resisted.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_04]: So you have 1983, several worst starts from my reading I see there were a lot of

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_04]: militant organizations but then LTTE, Liberation Tigers of Tamil Ilam they gain

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_04]: upper hand and slowly they become the militant organization.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_04]: They started out as a relatively small guerrilla force but they went on to resemble this modern

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_04]: forces with having their own military wing including Navy and airborne units.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_04]: So from a small guerrilla force to being an organization that resembles a modern armed force

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_04]: how did they go on about being that force?

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Because I see the geography of Sri Lanka it seems pretty secluded right and with

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_04]: a majority in state with their power on face pillow it seems that it could have easily

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_04]: gained control but that didn't happen it went on for quite a period.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_04]: The war started at 1983 and ended at 2009 right so a lot of it was because of the strength of

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_04]: LTTE. So the question to you is what was the basis of that strength through which they could

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_04]: develop so advanced and challenged Sri Lankan state?

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So the LTTE wanted to be recognized as the sole representative of the Tamil people

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and this was resisted by certain other groups.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Tamil groups.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes you have all these multiple groups and everybody wants to have a piece of that pie

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_02]: but the LTTE grew in strength and in influence. I think any liberation organization they call

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_02]: themselves a liberation front right and we may call it by any other name and I used to cover

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I was a journalist and I was actually going to the north and reporting and was also privy to

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_02]: the dialogues peace dialogues between the government and the liberation attackers

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_02]: of Tamil leader so I have some insights no movement can take such strong root in any place

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_02]: if there's no civil support. So I think the issue of identity the issue of deprivation of

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: political grievances of living through violence as citizens civilians all of that and being treated

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_02]: as second-class citizens or being denied are things that contribute to civil unrest and unhappiness

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and the LTTE came to symbolize those aspirations of the Tamil people we may not like to hear this

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_02]: but they definitely gave expression to the people's requirements and of course it was a violent

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_02]: group and Tamils were also at the receiving end you couldn't resist the LTTE they ruled they had

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_02]: tax systems and I used to get taxed so every time I crossed from this end so that we had this area

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_02]: called the border and their defined border so you cross that the speed limit in the rest of

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Sri Lanka was different and driving at 60 was upper limit all that so I get fined if my van

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_02]: goes at 60 and for me to see a real other state within one country now it's interesting but it was

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: mind-blowing at that time yeah everything changes from the topography geographically what it looks

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_02]: like from the palms to the clothes to how people live everything changed secondly I think besides the

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_02]: fact that they had acceptance whether it was by force or by real you know organic support

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_02]: they had public support we cannot deny this and then there was this growing diaspora influence

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_02]: we have driven people out of our country Tamils mostly and some of them ended up in South India

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_02]: as refugees when the when the war broke out in 1980 three people were taking boats to go to India

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and seeking refuge so Sri Lanka has not given protection to all Sri Lankans

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and then others who could who had the leverage of money and education went to western countries

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and then they funded then they supported and they believed in a cause and so I think the diaspora

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_02]: played a huge role in supporting the LTT so you're talking about the money the financial

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: capacity the military capacity let's not also forget our beautiful neighbor they definitely

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_02]: had a role to play and it's very well documented and something history has been unkind I think my

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_02]: personal take to Rajiv Gandhi who was trying to correct something that happened during Mrs. Gandhi's

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_02]: time and it was possibly too late for him to enter but he did try India played a critical role in

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_02]: arming and training the LTT and other groups so you knew how to use the weapons and you

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_04]: also had your supply route and you said this was mostly during the period of Indira Gandhi

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_02]: well the beginnings the training and all that since then when you have the diaspora growing

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and becoming a fluent the money flows you know how militant groups function yeah then you have

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_02]: all kinds of other things about trade and narcotics and arms and all of that LTT was

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_04]: you know I did spin a lot of points so what I want to get back now is you said LTT received

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_04]: support from India but then I also read how LTT attacked India at one point so why was that

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_02]: okay I think there's a small nuance thing yeah the dynamic between when you say support it was

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_02]: largely the training and the easy passage for armaments but very quickly India changed India

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_02]: had to change that is also because Tamil Nadu is part of India and it's like you know we are we are

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_02]: separated by 16 kilometers the proximity you know we are closer to Tamil Nadu than Tamil Nadu to Delhi

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah so when in your backyard there is this growing power of militancy I think the Indian

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_02]: security state had very good reason to be concerned about the one that they were feeding

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_02]: in a way having said that so once it was done again I think it's also an extension of the divide and rule

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_02]: India divides and rules I'm not going to mince my words on this one it does all big powers do

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_02]: even small countries try we if we can we also try to get the wedge between something right and

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_02]: get the advantage so it's it's international politics but when you do that you have domestic

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_02]: concerns and to be fair to India I think managing Tamil Nadu a large Indian state which has its own

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_02]: identity itself can be very problematic India is many countries in within one country and in that

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_02]: all these identities and languages and aspirations of people it's very difficult to manage the

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_02]: terminals are originally from Sri Lankan Tamils are deeply connected culturally and linguistically

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_02]: to Tamil Nadu so you would want to be very cautious about that growing identity and intimacy

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_02]: that's one and finally when Colombo wanted to have this discussion and bring the LTT to the

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_02]: table India played a huge role the moment India played that role of bringing these two groups

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_02]: together there was resistance and the LTT felt that India was changing this was no longer the pro LTT

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_02]: or LTT supportive India and when I say supportive I say I want to qualify this word it's politically

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_02]: aspirationally supportive because training phases ended by that time and then you want to think

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_02]: that the LTT not only resisted could not probably understand and I met a lot of

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Tamil leaders except for Velu Pillai Prabhakaran I've interviewed almost all those leaders and so

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: when you really unpack the history during peacetime where during the peacetalks and ceasefire

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I had access to these people and to understand how they were unpacking politics and looking at

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_02]: those historical times when all these things happened with the Indolanka Accord which was signed

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_02]: between Rajiv Gandhi and the then Sri Lankan president J R Javodana well let's say Sri Lanka didn't like

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_02]: it Colombo didn't like it they didn't like it people felt we were forced to run and that India

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_02]: was twisting their arm and the Tamils they liked it they didn't do this is the interesting

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_02]: thing you did not please any group right you're making both groups feel very unhappy about it

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think you know he when you live through that moment and much later only you have that

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_02]: peace of mind to unpack incidents and look at it with some new ones even Rajiv Gandhi I think had

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_02]: a tough time trying to you know find some middle ground and after the peace accord so you have

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_02]: conditions and the LTT is strongly resisted and I think Colombo did not have much opportunity to

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_02]: resist but I think J R Javodana was very smart at that moment he also doesn't get credit for some

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_02]: things you know we are all very good at criticizing leaders but when he was the president at the

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_02]: time the first degree president of Sri Lanka so we also had then the IPK Indian peacekeeping forces

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_02]: 3000 boots on the ground this really put the Tamils off India because now you have Indian

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_02]: troops Hindi speaking not Tamil speaking Hindi speaking any other language right of India

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_02]: but not necessarily Tamil speaking this is what people used to tell me people who are now old and

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_02]: remember the time I would say like they were not talking our language so there was a disconnect

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think after the IPK and how IPK went after the LTT because that was part of the accord

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_02]: to bring control to crush the LTT IPK played a huge role there is a monument for the IPK in

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Sri Lanka so we do remember them Sri Lanka does remember them and I think Tamils don't want to

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_02]: remember them so things have changed there is no one single thread right to anything history

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_02]: is all about these changing threads and even based on ones based and our own understanding

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: changes so when India changed the severe assistance to that India from mostly the Tamils but singhalese

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_02]: had God a very contentious relationship with India they do not trust India largely

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: they think there is always vested interest and even yesterday I was saying that there is a lot

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_02]: of historical baggage and one bit of that baggage an important piece is the fact that

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_02]: the the arming and the support training of dissenting groups interesting I think a lot of

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_04]: these things like fall out when we look at binary so someone who doesn't follow Sri Lankan politics

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_04]: it's like singhala and Tamils fighting India has Tamil populace and so they must be closer

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Tamils you know but then you have conflict between these groups as well so I think it's

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_02]: interesting to follow that as well talking about ethnic politics so Tamil Nadu's ethnic

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_02]: politics would be so close to what we have in the northern part of Sri Lanka so how can you

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_02]: not show support to the Tamils of Sri Lanka even when you know you wouldn't want to be one

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_02]: state it's such a pipe dream and Delhi has to appease Tamil Nadu too right yep and now moving

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_04]: on to understand Tamil as a group better normally from the outside there is a tendency to see

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Tamils as a monolithic category but based on my cursory reading there are different subgroups

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_04]: with different identity within that monolithic category I just wanted to ask and understand

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_04]: what sort of prominent different subgroups have been there historically have these subgroups had

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_04]: similar way of engaging with this Sri Lankan state or have they been different so the subgroup

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_02]: questions within Tamils yes so you have people who are brought from India for the longest

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_02]: period of time they were called Indian laborers can you imagine the language used it was so

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_02]: condescending and these people were brought from parts of India and then from large it

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_02]: on and south India and then they worked in the plantations T growing British got these

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_02]: people to work and what happens Sri Lanka doesn't give them citizenship and then there

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_02]: is this cinema Shastri packed to give them citizenship and in the 60s around 300,000

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_02]: people Tamils of Indian origin as they were called were given citizenship and another over

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_02]: 500,000 people were returned so they were repatriated and the question today is live

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_02]: there is a call for fully fledged political rights of this community so that's a second

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_02]: community while during so these are the two main groups one who have been there historically

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_04]: and one who are predecessors brought in to work in the plantations so two main subgroups of Tamils

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_02]: the second group has not been violent there's never been any uprising they have been less

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_02]: than citizens never really fully treated Sri Lanka's unspoken people and really the margin

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_04]: and within these group how did they engage with the state was it logically speaking some

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_04]: opted parliamentary politics and some opted arms was that sort of dynamics there or

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_04]: there were a single force going through militant route to demand their rights

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_02]: so salon workers congress CWC became a huge political force and this was created

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_02]: so this is about Tamils who were brought central parts of Sri Lanka I see yes they became

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_02]: the king makers later on yeah in the 80s and early 90s they were the king makers they got a lot of

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_02]: power a lot of clout and in the central parts you know you have sizable representation you

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_02]: represent the working class plantation workers with huge numbers so you have a lot of

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_02]: representation and they leveraged on that and they were deciding as to who would gain parliamentary

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_02]: majority so to that extent they were very clever but at the same time some of them were rich of

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_02]: course you know this is how politics work but they are the most unservice people of Sri Lanka

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and you have these good indicators about Sri Lanka right our health our education

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_02]: our sanitation all that's good but not if you look at the plantations that's that untold story

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_02]: so even the politicians did not service them but they used them for votes so they assimilated and

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_02]: worked with the single majority governments extremely well securing powerful portfolios

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and having control over aspects of economy like plantations minister of plantations that's a big

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_02]: thing for a country that produces tea the finest tea is in the world so that engagement was different

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_02]: these two groups never really identified with each other and I think towards the end when

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_02]: peacetalks happened the LTT did make an attempt with that sole representative of the Tamil people

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_02]: thing to extend but there are many reasons as to why the northern Tamil would not want to

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_02]: be the representative of the central province Tamil of Indian origin I say interesting we have

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_04]: somewhat of similar equation here in as in ethnic minority parties the Madae's based parties

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_04]: they are also in position of king makers it's a question of what they do that with that power

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_04]: but they are in that position so now moving on to the question of post-war reconciliation what has

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_04]: that been like while following the news I could see issues of devolution and transitional justice

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_04]: pop up in Sri Lanka in Nepal's case as well as part of post conflict restructuring we

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_04]: transition into federal governance additionally we are also in the process of tabling the

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_04]: truth and reconcile the bill in the parliament I'll buy it a bit too late

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_02]: okay see the original call of the Tamil people also included federalism a federal state

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02]: so the 13th amendment which was the brainchild of you know it is a spin-off of this piece of code

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_02]: so you want to develop power and I think that's a very important watershed moment in

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_02]: politics Sri Lanka has as we discussed had these provincial kingdoms but then we became unified

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and we only could see one single country and I think it's all right to see Sri Lanka as one

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_02]: single country but at the same time there is a real need to share power with all the people in

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_02]: this country not just Tamil there are Muslims there are burgers we have driven the burgers

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_02]: out of this country as well yeah with the language policy we also made made it impossible for them to

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_02]: group so what did you mention burgers we called them Sri Lankan burgers but they are people of

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_02]: dutch and Portuguese origin largely dutch and they have contributed to Sri Lanka's architecture

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and arts in a big way but we have been dispossessing people for the longest possible time in a

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_04]: quite a shameful story is there an attempt towards post-war reconciliation right now no

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_02]: this was like you know post independence but in post war push 2009 yeah so the attempt was

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_02]: to after the 13th amendment one of the biggest grievances was that the 13th amendment was never

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_02]: truly implemented by the single state we have never really even when we set up the

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_02]: northern council the chief minister who you know I speak to him sorry for our listener

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_04]: the third in amendment talked about the revolution of power it was in 1987 yeah so and then you have

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: these nine provinces and then you have a chief minister and you have a provincial council for

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_02]: each of the states so technically the the requirement comes from the north right so it's

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_02]: very critically important to show your commitment by setting it up so yes it was done so there is

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_02]: a northern provincial council varda rajaparumar was the first chief minister we talk about northern

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_02]: province we talk a lot a very interesting very very interesting historical figure he is

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_02]: he kept on coming to kalambo to you know make sure that this becomes a functional reality

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and yeah he has told this to me in a number of interviews and eventually he's remembered for

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_02]: declaring separate state and you know raising the flag and saying that this is a separate

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_02]: state why we kalambo drove him to that desperate level of so we have never been true to the idea

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_02]: of sharing power now you have provincial councils and a lot of people don't feel it's an important

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_02]: political you know body because they don't really truly serve the people and they're seen as

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_02]: wide elephants it's important to see that the one thing our unit of devolution is the problem

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and then we never really feed it we never really make it take root and function so all these

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_02]: aspirational things that have been lost in the annals of time contribute to our unhappiness

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_02]: collective unhappiness and then we have the war and obviously our engagement in terms of

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: the Sri Lankan state with the LTT in talks is you know it's rooted in suspicion everybody thinks

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_02]: that you know you're really not going to make a good bargain you just out there to you know crush

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_02]: the other so all that distrust and then you have the end of the war was create victors and

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_02]: vanquished and for this proud Tamil race I think it was really you know you lose your

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_02]: opportunity your bargaining clout without the LTT you lose your bargaining clout so and then you talk

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_02]: about transitional justice at the time my Rajapaksha's government was hell bent on bringing the war to an

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_02]: end and people were tired there was war fatigue I'm sure the war fatigue is common to the south

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and the north perhaps more to the north we didn't hear them too much so in that sense I think most

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_02]: people felt at some point this had to come to an end but it was a very violent end which according

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_02]: to the UN estimated over 60,000 people's lives being lost and many many thousand missing

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_02]: so in that you try to introduce these mechanisms but why the mechanisms are something that

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_02]: some of the single reason some of the Tamils may have wanted and all the international order

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_02]: so there was a lot of you know international pressure to move to the second level unfortunately

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_02]: for Mahindra Rajapaksha there was no real honest commitment to make sure that we transition

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_02]: from the war phase to a post-war and transformative phase where we actually start working with the

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Tamil people when they are trust become one country which is what you wanted so I don't think there was

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_02]: political commitment even at that stage so these were like you know mechanisms that didn't he was

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_02]: not even considering all of that he could have we always say that he could have been the

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Nelson Mandela Sri Lanka it's just that he ended up being Robert Mugabe this is something that a lot

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_02]: of people say but it was much later these mechanisms came when president Maitri Palasiri Sena and the

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_02]: current president promised at that time Prime Minister Rani Lekramasinha he believed in that

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and they they wanted these mechanisms so it wasn't as if the Rajapaksha's were you know

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_02]: interested in pushing peace they were only interested in ending the war I see a bit of small

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_04]: follow-up with the devolution and provinces in Nepal we have provinces but then there's still

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_04]: a question of devolving power things are centralized is it the same in Sri Lanka as well like you

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_04]: already are divided into provinces the question is you know them having power to govern themselves

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_04]: is it that you still have to work around the first bit about the center government is that

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Congress is still up but that's a settled one well it's the mapping of it is done

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_02]: the power sharing is not done you have power technically you have power you don't have police

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_02]: power you don't have power over lands because this whole territorial thing is a huge issue for

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Sri Lanka but you're still working around the central government and so you have the

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_02]: central government and always the provincial councils have to work with the central government

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_02]: for other provinces it's not an issue but I think it's a huge come down for those who wanted a separate

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_02]: state and wanted autonomy that word autonomy doesn't even figure anymore I see it's somewhat

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_04]: similar I think we have technically divided into provinces but the powers that is aren't there

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_04]: we fail to operationalize it through regulations rules and though our constitution imagines some

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_04]: mode of power sharing structure but when it comes to drafting those regulations and acts you know

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_02]: so you have a schedule of powers like we have a schedule this is what is devolved

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_04]: yes but it's very blurry you have overlapping mandates and then for that to operationalize

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_04]: you need regulations and and they're in the center government comes in and puts it all on

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_04]: under their control so that has been one of the pivotal thing regarding our federalism story

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_04]: yeah we have power division but that hasn't been operationalized yeah so center

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_04]: you know has majority of it and the provinces are just helpless and now moving on to a bit

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_04]: of a tangential question but I think it's something we can learn from Sri Lanka's experience

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_04]: in Nepal due to the current instability brought in by coalition politics there has been a growing

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_04]: call for an executive presidency Sri Lanka on the other hand has shifted from the

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Westminster system to a more of a French like system of the executive presidency

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_04]: how has that experience with executive presidency been like in Sri Lanka

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_04]: on what aspect do you think it has helped and where do you think it can be a disadvantage

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_04]: please feel free to highlight both development and human rights related aspect visa v executive

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_02]: presidency one of the most contentious topics in Sri lankan politics would be the executive

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_02]: presidency so you're right it's very de gallist our constitution right so we have a very

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_02]: de gallist executive president who has lots of power lots of power concentrated on one single

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_02]: individual so it is like the dance of the prima donna right you dance around we of course have

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_02]: a parliamentary system we have an executive president we have a cabinet of ministers so

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_02]: that's how the government functions the president is also the head of the cabinet

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's important and the president also retains to at least two key this tradition

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_02]: there this is not written but then they all have retained defense and finance yeah so control

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_02]: over a lot of things and also the executive president is also the head of armed forces

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_02]: right so whenever you want you can mobilize the military since jaya javadhan's ascendancy

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and he created this position he's a very interesting lawyer so everyone else who followed him promised

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_02]: to abolish it but we still have an executive president so those who get to that position

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_02]: understand it's a lot of power command re-in-chief of the armed forces you know and then control

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: over your public finance through the finance portfolio and of defense which i can understand

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_02]: so that's a lot of power and also the right to appoint people this has got diluted later

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_02]: with the 19th amendment which was once again destroyed by the rajapaksha because we amended

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_02]: that to 19th amendment created a space for independent public commissions like the police

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_02]: all of that has been undone much later so it is a very powerful position where one person

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_02]: is capable of making a lot of decisions on behalf of the people so people understand it's too much

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_02]: power in the hands of one man except in one instance we haven't had a woman they all have

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_02]: excesses as a result we have spoken about the political manifest the various parties

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_02]: have in their manifestos promise to abolish it's one of the most popular slogans we will

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_02]: abolish executive presidency and we never do it and i think those who get to that point enjoy the

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_02]: power this is an election year in Sri Lanka but i don't see this even becoming a promise

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_04]: interesting we here in Nepal are frustrated with our west minister system where you need

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_04]: coal is in to run the government you or Sri Lanka on the other end it seems that

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_04]: you guys are frustrated with executive presidency where president has a lot of power right so

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_02]: well the president is able to come to parliament but he's not part of parliament so he sits a level

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_02]: above and therefore the parliamentary politics where you need a majority what happens is if

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_02]: a presidential election this is practically if you go for a presidential election and one person

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_02]: gets elected he's a vote for the vote for psychological right people vote for the president

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_02]: people yeah vote for the president and and then president can represent a party he is or she is

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_02]: representing a political party so that party wins and then the candidate becomes president

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and then invariably that person's party gets the parliamentary majority if not you cobble

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_02]: a coalition but we haven't seen very shaky coalitions power attracts power and quickly the

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_02]: smaller parties come as i told you the king makers they have got diluted but there are the king makers

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_02]: so they slowly convert themselves into these groups and somehow they cobble you know if you

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_02]: don't have the majority in the house you create functional majorities it's not as if we have

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_02]: not seen it collapse but we have not been so shaky like there was a time in india like you'd see

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_02]: the government collapse like you know pack of cards every three months where we have it here

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_04]: now we don't have it we haven't seen too much of that no and just logically speaking the position

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_04]: of executive presidency i guess it also invites a lot of populistic politics because

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_04]: people vote for you directly so you're there to charm them and you know it attracts big personality

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_04]: who might not necessarily be democratic is that so how has that experience been like

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_02]: okay that's a very interesting question because we are actually talking about the individual

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_02]: i see yeah individual uh there is individual style each president will have his or her way

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_02]: so we have seen one female president chandrakakumar tsonga everyone else been a man

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and their styles have been different uh rana singhapremadas was different to jr javodana

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and now ranil vikram Singh who is also the nevi of jr javodana is very different

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and my tripala sirisena was also different so they were very different their priorities could

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_02]: also be somewhat different focus areas the issue is that so much of power in the hands of one can

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_02]: create very kleptocratic authoritarian rulers you were talking about 1983 and violence javodana

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_02]: is blamed for unleashing violence on the tamils under his watch he let it happen and this is

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_02]: recorded history that the government allowed three days of violence to continue before they

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_02]: stepped in and that's fact so you can actually use it to crush somebody crush a group

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_02]: a post descent think we have a very good taste of it it's quite bitter in our mouths i see something

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_04]: to learn for us then yeah now we move on to questions regarding international organizations and

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_04]: i think there been a big player in Sri Lanka and Nepal likewise here i just wanted to understand

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_04]: what sort of roles international organizations be it un e u and others have played historically

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_04]: in resolving minority grievances and how effective have there been i recently read how the president

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_04]: is pushing for ethnographic reconciliation partly resulting from pressures from these international

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_04]: organizations who die economic assistance and trade related assistance with human right issues

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_04]: in Nepal's case personally what i've observed is somewhat of a cyclical pattern in the early

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_04]: years of Maoist war when the minority voices were not mainstream international organizations

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_04]: were relatively quiet here about minority rights related issues the focus was more on service

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_04]: delivery focusing on health or education but then when there was a strong movement here in

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Nepal internally and subsequently when Nepal went through a period of state restructuring

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_04]: international organizations were very active in raising issues regarding minority rights

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_04]: and at this current point when the conversation regarding state restructuring at least on paper

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_04]: appears to be a settled issues and traditional forces have regained power international

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_04]: organizations haven't been very active on minority rights related issues they have

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_04]: again started focusing more on issues of service delivery or promoting growth right so

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_04]: is this cyclical pattern somewhat similar to what you have experienced in Sri Lanka or is it

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_02]: somewhat different can i ask you a counter question do you think in our countries power shifts

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_02]: are so organic or is there a measure of external pressure and influence if not pressure

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_04]: there is some influence it's something i've been thinking about i don't know if it domestic actors

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_04]: influence international politics or international politics influence domestic actor i see a lot of

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_04]: things happening one way and i also have a lot of other examples of things having other ways so

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_04]: it just like everyone you know they play their cards sometimes one forces can make the other

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_04]: move sometime other forces can make other forces move right now what i've seen is our government

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_04]: it's filled by traditional forces and they have a stronger bargaining power when engaging with

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_04]: international organizations that that can be good bad i'm not going to comment on it so right

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_04]: now they are able to somewhat direct where we need assistance and previously when we were in the

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_04]: phase of state restructuring that wasn't the case because our internal politics was itself fluid

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_04]: and at that point international partners they could influence domestic politics so i see

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_04]: it being somewhat of a cyclical pattern at one point someone can get up a hand at others

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_04]: that's my reading based on napalipolitics i'd love to hear yours i think when you're a small state

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_02]: there are different dynamics yeah and not to play the victim card but to understand that how do we

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_02]: leverage the little power the soft power that we may have plus various ways in which to bargain

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_02]: with the big powers they're so important at all times so president javadana was

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_02]: was not making india happy yeah he was making india extremely unhappy so this is understood

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_02]: so he was president when in the 80s actually yeah so the the ipkf came to shrillanka and the

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_02]: piece accord was signed uh when he was in power he was the first executive president i just wanted

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_02]: to make an example so you know to these power blocks power blocks do have a lot to do in

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_02]: propping up the person and also you're talking about the international agencies and about

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_02]: addressing grievances so when shrillanka went into this phase of engaging with the liberation

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_02]: tigers of tamale alum the the talks were facilitated by the novigiles and i always

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_02]: think there's no free lunch yeah very elusive and so novi that alone became very suspicious

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_02]: for some people because you know the conspiracy theories that people love to hear think about

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and western influence all these things are there this is international power play you know what

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_02]: it's always there it's our reality and when you're a small state it's really more prevalent

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and we feared it having said that it's up to us to navigate those not so great you know waters

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_02]: as best as we can so peace talks had this whole novige in context and you're right

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_02]: the western aid was always linked to a number of things like the gsp plus the preferential concessions

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_02]: by the u is linked to human rights so i know they say that we would not support you if your human

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_02]: rights record is really bad and then of course the us aid that's the other big player every

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_02]: country and and their agencies would have a certain position and i don't see any problem with

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_02]: that as long as you understand and the positions are clear but today the trajectory is different

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_02]: after the economic collapse the focus and support is now on taxation and growth and recovery

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_02]: and shrillanka is in that phase with the imf bailout so it's changed but do they also apply

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_02]: the condition of human rights well well not that traditional set of human rights now this

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_02]: is about service delivery cutting on corruption so we had a very interesting diagnostic tool the

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_02]: first time shrillanka became a case study for the imf and it does say that you know even the

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_02]: benefits given to the poor is not rightfully given and this and the fact that there's a lot of

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_04]: political beneficiaries which is true and the emergence of china has it sort of

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_04]: altered the equation that you guys had with traditional donors because china usually doesn't

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_04]: factor to human rights related commitments when giving aid so has that changed the equation

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_04]: with western donors also shrillanka's relationship how much do shrillanka leaders use china or

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_02]: you know as they say play china card many cards um it's an interesting question but a very common one

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_02]: it's easy to understand that the Indo-Pacific the neighborhood first and then bri all having their

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_02]: own line to push the game is for shrillanka to play well and to manage all these three now the

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_02]: united states has been a long-standing friend of shrillanka if you may call it a friend president

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_02]: javadana was very west leaning yeah he he looked to the west for development support and this did

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_02]: not make india happy so our our friction with india has a huge history and and president javadana

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_02]: did not make the neighbor happy shrillanka was the first to first country in south asia to have

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_02]: an open economy and then so we started working with the european nations and there was european aid

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and he had a very good relationship with uh japan so he had a lot of japanese aid so that's how

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_02]: the developer the donor dependent economy was created and then about china so you're

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_02]: right they don't ask questions for a country that has been historically working with the european

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_02]: western donors and also with the united states then you have a situation where in 2005 when president

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_02]: mahindra raja pakshar becomes the president he wants to grow he wants shrillanka to grow

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and the war to end i think to be fair there were two trusts to his government the conceptualizing

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_02]: of his regime he lost himself and the government lost its way later on for sure and uh were contributing

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_02]: to this huge economic collapse because they did not know what they were doing but one was to end

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_02]: the war the other one was to have a quick development trajectory and this infrastructure development

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_02]: is brie's main thing right so we were working with china suddenly and all those uncomfortable

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_02]: questions about human rights which the raja pakshar has had a plenty to deal with they are because of

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_02]: the war so why do you work with these these countries and make you uncomfortable when there is

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_02]: a country that doesn't ask you questions and give you a high interest loans to even service your

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_02]: vanity projects we know what has happened the final outcome of this china's presence has made

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_02]: india and the united states obviously worry so we have a situation at a point i remember president

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_02]: raja pakshar in an interview said that we play china against india and india against china

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah he didn't play india against china too well i would say yeah he was almost anti-india

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_02]: and and india did not uh necessarily feel that the raja pakshars were very india friendly

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and so when you're reliant on one single country and all your development work is linked to

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_02]: chinese support obviously other countries do worry everybody wants a presence everybody wants this

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_02]: take so from united states to india to china everybody is there and in competition my problem

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_02]: is not about them wanting to compete the trillanka becoming their battleground if you're smart

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_02]: you will play it well and get the us china and india all to support and pursue your agenda which is

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_02]: what trillanka leaders should have done if they did that 2022 wouldn't have happened yeah absolutely

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_04]: i think it's all about using what you have leverage it just that at times they use that to

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_04]: gain like domestic credibility and win votes very popular very popular at that time yeah here also

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_04]: anti-india sentiments they use politicians they use it to gather votes rather than it being something

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_04]: strategic so now i just wanted to focus a bit on india you said some bit previously

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_04]: just capturing india's position on trillanka's ethnic politics so historically they have been

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_04]: heavily involved starting from creating an atmosphere for the 13th amendment that devolved power in 1987

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_04]: the question is have they maintained similar sort of engagement at present as well or how has their

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_04]: engagement changed so it's just similar dynamic playing out with india right now i think nothing

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_02]: stays the same i see if you thought china was your friend in the financial crisis time we realized

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_02]: when the whole thing collapsed china wasn't your friend we couldn't negotiate those loans

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_02]: we couldn't delay those payments it was like shailok come to your house and saying like

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_02]: we are demanding our pound of flesh and you got a deliver but if that is their policy

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_02]: i wouldn't fault china i would say that the shailankan leaders should have known who you're

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_02]: engaging with and on what terms likewise india's relationship has evolved and it's never static

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_02]: india can never be static right it's it's the closest neighbor and there are good moments and

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_02]: bad moments very you know friction and unhappiness as someone who watches india closely and south

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_02]: asia in general i think indian foreign policy has evolved especially in the neighborhood first

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_02]: so india is a believer and then its foreign policy is technically multipolar there is no

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_02]: unipolarity possible because that's the chinese position right or the united states position

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_02]: so in that when you work with the neighbors and i know india has a very contentious

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_02]: relationship with napal the neighborhood first policy can be can sound nice but not necessarily

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_02]: translate into real good action having said that i would also come up with an exemption

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_02]: when the financial collapse happened and i know it is of strategic interest to quickly get your

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_02]: you know food into shailanka you know and then start moving but at the same time that is also

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_02]: neighbor and so with regard to the mobilization of humanitarian assistance supplies of food and medicine

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and also the four billion dollars that they contributed for shailanka to stay afloat

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_02]: cannot be written off either you know if we were a desperate country at that moment so india

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_02]: played a pivotal role and sometimes i think because of the historical legacy and our contentious

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_02]: relationship that some of these moments are lost some of the better moments are also lost

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_02]: but then it is also so what happens shailanka is vulnerable our economic vulnerability creates

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_02]: a place for india to come in and assist but it's an extension of their foreign policy

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's also an opportunity to get a better foothold and then to bargain for you know management of

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_02]: certain resources of the country so i would say the relationship at this given moment is slightly

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_02]: better than what it used to be to be fair i think indian foreign policy has evolved

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and even in that how it deals with napal is not how it deals with pakistan how it deals with

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_02]: shailanka would be different to how it deals with the motives the problem is that big player in the

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_02]: neighborhood thing is always there and as small states we always feel that it is there interesting

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_04]: just retraining what you said you mentioned india was a better friend financially in 2022 than

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_04]: china was and i also heard indian foreign minister suggesting indian to you know visit

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_04]: shailanka right so that clip got viral we have indian currency in shailanka we never had now i know

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_02]: it's used in this country but it's not largely in circulation but you can see i was surprised so

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_02]: this whole mobilization it's a very interesting thing how it's not just the tourist that's

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_02]: slowly much of india becoming more present and visible this is how it happens and regarding

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_04]: 30th amendment do you think india has a strategic interest to see it implemented or because i've seen

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_04]: you know recent news where you know indian counterparts they were nudging the shailankun

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_04]: government to you know go through the 13th amendment and devolve power so is it running

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_04]: a su or is it something you know that just comes out sometimes three years after this it will be

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_02]: the 40th anniversary of the amendment what do we have to show for it and to bring the ltt to the table

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_02]: many things had to be done and also to have negotiated peace to get to a point of a truce

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_02]: to you know we've seen years of escalation and of violence but 13th amendment honestly implemented

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_02]: could have at least sent out a signal that kalamba was honestly genuinely concerned about sharing power

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and was willing to commit we haven't really shown it so clearly as something that india supported

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_02]: conceptualized and to bring these two factions parties to the table it's important for them to see

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_02]: 13th amendment implemented fully and to see power devolution as a reality and to see negotiated

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_02]: peace peace that is not about the victor and the vanquished and i think more than to india

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_02]: to shrillankans it should matter because they are finally shrillankans ltt is not a foreign army

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah i did these people shrillankans so it is in our interest to share power

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_04]: and now to the final question as someone who is heavily engaged in regional platforms i wanted to

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_04]: understand your take if asked to compare on civic space in different southeastern countries

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_04]: you can perhaps highlight things more constructively if you want it it just that i do not want to

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_04]: miss out the opportunity to hear from someone with so much reason experience in this field as you do

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_02]: in south asia people are losing their voice collectively and i think there are things that

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_02]: napal should celebrate that you have retained a sense of space and opportunity well and above

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_02]: other countries and for that you're alone you're a case study of inclusion and of also

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_02]: tolerance that descent is not something that somebody needs to go and kill you for

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's huge because in the rest of south asia it isn't so i see shrinking space for civil

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_02]: society and for journalists in a country that we used to celebrate for its democratic norms

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's our neighboring india and it makes practitioners very apprehensive and think

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_02]: of any other country another country that we don't know too much about like butan

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and we all know there are napalese-speaking refugees in nepal you know in your country

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_02]: so where is your tolerance and acceptance of people and if you then move to afghanistan

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_02]: it's a complete collapse your critical voices are no longer within your country have driven them

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_02]: out so i think we are very same case in point i think a lot of people are leaving you know finding

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_02]: it very difficult to freely express themselves what are we seeing are we having the kind of states

[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_02]: who are unable to deal with descent you're not talking about militant groups here we are talking

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_02]: about people working at ground level people who have a certain belief system and who would want to

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_02]: protect the democratic space to have those voices right and i think south asia has a problem of

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_02]: tolerance and of accepting descent to be part of democracy what is democracy if you do not

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_04]: allow another voice regarding nepal's case i mean yesterday too i kept hearing you know

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_04]: nepal as an example for having a vibrant civic space we do have that i feel that we can say anything

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_04]: you know criticize any leaders and i don't see having that bigger repercussion but then i wonder

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_04]: do we believe on freedom of expression having a healthy civic space value wise or it is just

[01:01:20] [SPEAKER_04]: the case that we have many small factions there's no dominant you know ruler that's why

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_04]: you know you're enjoying this space right so that's a question for us to think about as well

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_04]: and with this note i would like to end the podcast it was great having you here to hear

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_04]: your experiences as working journalists in Sri Lanka as well as your experience of

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_04]: engaging in this sort of regional platform and giving more of that southeast invoice that

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_04]: all name so thank you for your time and hopefully we'll get to have many such discussions in

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_02]: the future as well thank you so much for having me and i think south asia needs to understand that

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_02]: we have our different voices and our collective voices and unlike other regions we are not collective

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's something that south asia should really seriously think about so it's great

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_02]: that you're talking to people from the region and making these experiences shareable

[01:02:21] [SPEAKER_02]: with others thank you yeah pleasure was ours thank you so much

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_00]: thanks for listening to pods by pei i hope you enjoyed susab's conversation with dil rukshi

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_00]: on thinking Sri Lanka recalling legacies of conflict domestic politics and aid today's episode

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: was produced by nirjan rai with support from kusihang and me ridhe subkota the episode was

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_00]: recorded pei studio and was edited by me ridhe subkota our theme music is courtesy of royd

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