Rebroadcast: Sucheta Pyakurel on Power and Parity: Charting Nepal's Gender Policy Journey

[00:00:00] Namaste and happy Women's Day. Over the seasons we've been joined by brilliant women who have contributed to our quest of enriching Nepal's policy dialogue by sharing their knowledge and expertise. So this year, we at PEI are joining the Worldwide Celebration of Women's Day by continuing to embrace an intentional focus on women's inclusion and meaningful participation. For today's episode, we are re-broadcasting a conversation on Nepal's gender policy journey with Sujita Pya Kurel and guest host Yuki Poetra.

[00:00:30] The episode is a deep exploration of gender in Nepal's policy sphere that investigates both historical and contemporary developments. We think this conversation is an important piece in understanding women's inclusion and its trajectory in Nepal, and it makes for a perfect Women's Day lesson. So we hope you enjoy the conversation and thank you for tuning in.

[00:01:01] Namaste and welcome to PODS by PEI, a policy discussion series brought to you by Policy Entrepreneurs Inc. My name is Kushihan. In today's episode we have guest host Yuki Poetra's conversation with Sujita Pya Kurel on Power and Parity, charting Nepal's gender policy journey.

[00:01:19] Sujita Pya Kurel is the Director of the Center for Governance at the Institute of Integrated Development Studies. She teaches gender in politics and policy making for the Masters and PhD programs at Tribuan University, and is a visiting faculty of Kathmandu University's Masters in Public Policy and Management Program.

[00:01:37] An alumna of the Regional Center for Strategic Studies of South Asia, her work focuses on the study of democratic development and good governance in the region.

[00:01:46] Yuki is currently the co-founder of the Nepal Institute of Study abroad and has experience working across a myriad of sectors from non-profits to innovative startups as a consultant, strategist and leader.

[00:01:59] She completed her Masters in Development Practices and International Business from Tsof's University.

[00:02:05] In this episode, Yuki and Sujita explore Nepal's policy landscape with gendered lenses. They begin by elucidating the case for gender equality and its vital connection to responsive policies and budgeting in patriarchal societies like Nepal.

[00:02:20] Chasing Nepal's history of gender policies, Sujita shares pivotal reforms that have significantly narrowed the gap but also critically examining the formal and informal factors that hindered the implementation of these policies.

[00:02:34] The two then discuss crucial gender policy events and debates to extract observations on the efficiency of such policies and recommend changes.

[00:02:43] We hope you enjoy the conversation.

[00:02:49] Thank you Sujita for being here and welcome to our podcast Retrieve to Have You Here.

[00:02:54] Thank you for having me.

[00:02:56] It's great. So Sujita, let's just start with the basics while we're talking about gender equality. Everyone has their own notion of what it is so that we can all be in the same plane. Why don't you start with explaining us what gender equality means to you?

[00:03:12] How that's connected to gender responsive policies and budgeting.

[00:03:17] Gender equality is if you trace it back to what it means, what it should mean. I guess we'll have to go back to the fundamentals of political philosophy where one is taught that one is born free and one is born with three sets of rights right to life liberty and property.

[00:03:36] So one is born absolutely and completely free and equal so right to life liberty and property in an equal manner. Right.

[00:03:43] So going by that particular tenet one needs to assume that we are all equal regardless of who we are whether we are in a man or a woman or whatever, right, a child.

[00:03:56] So with that pretext gender equality should have been a norm from the get go but it wasn't. It's not being so I guess to kind of have the kind of political system that we envision the kind of egalitarian system that we envision one thing that is a must is gender equality.

[00:04:17] I mean that is the starting point everybody has to be equal and the fact that it's not and that's a problem that becomes a problem.

[00:04:26] And so that's the reason why we talk about gender equality. So regardless of who we are what our gender is, we're absolutely equal. That is the basic prerequisite to our democratic governance.

[00:04:36] You cannot have democratic governance without that particular prerequisite that we're all equal that we're all born equal right.

[00:04:42] So that's the reason why we talk about gender equality and the fact that there is a lot of gender inequality in society such as ours very patriarchal traditional field societies that becomes an issue, especially in regards to political evolution.

[00:04:56] So that's the reason why the issue of gender equality is pushed forth just to be talked about just to kind of smooth the planes, just to kind of level the playing field.

[00:05:06] And so that is gender equality for for for anybody for all of us now moving to your second portion of the question why gender equality, especially regards to policymaking process in regards to gender responsive budgeting, we call it GRB.

[00:05:23] So because we're all born equal, because we're all citizens, because we're all voters and because we should have an equal claim to the political pie in that's the state.

[00:05:34] And when that does not happen, that becomes problematic.

[00:05:37] And so in order for all of us to have equal access to the government to various incentives that the government provides, it is very, very important to have equal access regardless of one's gender.

[00:05:51] And so that's the reason why gender equality is extremely important while making policies, while implementing administering policies, gender equality is a must at every stage.

[00:06:00] So that's the reason why gender equality is a major fact it's a big factor, very important factor in policymaking process now moving on to gender responsive budgeting.

[00:06:09] So budgeting it's a fiscal policy of the state, right budget is a policy. It's a fiscal policy and money is power money is where the cloud is it's where the pressure is where the power is and majority of the time what has happened in the past and what typically tends to happen is that the money is allocated to or for

[00:06:30] for quote unquote policies that have a lot of a lot of interest from particular pressure groups interest groups those that actually have sociopolitical cultural cloud religious cloud at times.

[00:06:43] And majority of the times those are not women and so that's the reason why it's very important that we allocate funds for women for women's development because 51% of the total population are women, right.

[00:06:57] And so if you want to holistic development, if you want like the state to be uplifted in a holistic manner, you cannot afford to leave behind that 51% and so that's the reason why gender based or gender responsive budgeting is very important to gender equality.

[00:07:12] So I hope I've answered all three of your questions brilliantly.

[00:07:16] So follow up on that so as we talk about how status created spaces for these women, let's talk about the brief history of the evolution of gender policy. And as you answer this, you can go over some of the historic landmark policies, maybe you can talk over

[00:07:33] policies in our country that you think have enabled us to bridge that gap between what we used to have and what we didn't a decade or two ago.

[00:07:42] So I guess when we're talking about policies, I think it's very important to talk about the political environment surrounding the advent of those policies.

[00:07:51] So if you are to trace back, if you focus on the Nepali context, I guess one cannot help but remember the times of Yogh Maya, Yogh Maya Nupani.

[00:08:02] And she, I think she died in 1940, 41-42 if I'm not mistaken, but I may be completely wrong with the dates, but in the first half of the 40s.

[00:08:11] So that was, I guess one of the most important landmark where women came together and defied the system and pushed for a way to start with gender friendly policies.

[00:08:24] And shortly thereafter they were talks about opening women's schools in colleges in Kathmandu.

[00:08:29] And so here's stories about how Manga Devi Singh along with Saanabhadaan, others, Saanabhadaan, others.

[00:08:35] I think they went up to Padmasham Shair asking him to open a school for women and that was how the first girls school in Nepal was open as Padma Kanya school.

[00:08:46] And likewise shortly thereafter women's colleges were open like one college Padma Kanya was open.

[00:08:51] And so it started this gender friendly policies, you know the process of making gender friendly policies.

[00:08:59] And then fast forward to the 90s, you had the 1990s movement where a lot of women, they came up to the fore and they were fighting for the cause of democracy.

[00:09:09] You know some of the names come forth, we just tend to remember Shailaja Ajarya and Saanabhadaan, Manga Devi Singh.

[00:09:17] They didn't portray themselves as feminist, I remember distinctly I mean I was growing up at that time and I remember how Shailaja Ajarya very specifically said that she is not a feminist.

[00:09:28] But I guess what the leaders, the female leaders at that time, what they were not realizing was how they were like you know what they were doing, how their actions were very very feminist.

[00:09:37] And so I guess because feminism had that stigma, the word feminist had that stigma at that time.

[00:09:43] And so majority of the women leaders were not willing to associate themselves with that particular word and maybe that's the reason why but you know what they did was very feminist, feminist, so Saanabhadaan and Manga Devi Singh and Sailaja Ajarya.

[00:09:58] And so these are the women that come to mind that actually pushed for gender-friendly policies.

[00:10:04] So you had quota system, the first quota system in 1990 and later on and of course you had you know Beijing platform for action in 1995 which kind of really really pushed gender-friendly policies from the international level.

[00:10:17] And so with Hillary Clinton saying women's rights are human rights.

[00:10:21] So that kind of started the conversation about how women's rights is it's something that needs to be discussed more about how women's centric policies need to come up to the fore.

[00:10:32] So that was happening and in 2001-2002 I think there was a landmark decision about how unmarried daughters can should have access to parental property.

[00:10:44] And from that moment onward, there were one after the other cases that came that actually started giving more and more access to things like citizenship and property and so on and so forth.

[00:10:56] The discourses have been going on and full blast since that time and it's not stopped till now so we are evolving of course.

[00:11:05] We're working every day, working very hard to make sure that women are the same level as men.

[00:11:12] The work continues but there are a lot of policies that have actually turned into law and there is an overarching national policy now as as director principles is one of the director principles Jesse gender empowerment and social inclusion policy that basically touches upon major bureaus and their functioning and so on and so forth.

[00:11:32] So a lot has happened since then but very shortly I just tried to trace the evolution of policy making process, gender-friendly policy making process in Nepal.

[00:11:41] That's great. Thank you very much. So moving on the purpose of gender policy interventions are to address problems or lack of opportunities and resources that arise from one gender.

[00:11:55] However, the route to policy from policies to impact isn't that simplistic and there are many nuances that dilute policy level efforts.

[00:12:05] What do you see are some of the more important policies that have struggled to find traction in the real world?

[00:12:12] What are the different forms of hindrances in the way of proper implementations of gender policies.

[00:12:20] There are a lot of instances I don't know if I can quote all of them. I don't know if I can remember all of them but some of the policies that come to mind, I mean it's citizenship act, it's already been that it's been promulgated however as far as administration is concerned as far as implementation is concerned.

[00:12:35] There are a lot of hiccups that are still being felt especially by women. I remember in a student of mine talking to me about how her son is interested in getting his citizenship through her but the state won't allow it because the state wants either the father completely absent from the picture or the father already passed away dead.

[00:12:56] There are a lot of societal hindrances that basically maybe it's because of the socio-cultural residue that you see such hiccups.

[00:13:07] There are a lot of other issues that I was talking about with somebody the other day was recently this act against acid attack survivors that has been passed but what their concern was that this could have been a policy or an act against anybody that tries to use burn violence against women.

[00:13:32] But it just became an act for acid survivors not for victims or survivors of burn violence.

[00:13:40] So these are some of the things that make policy implementation, policy administration very complicated.

[00:13:49] Other things that I can think of, you have a quota system, you have quota system in the parliament, you have quota system in the state parliament, in the local government level.

[00:14:01] Majority of the time what you see in this mean not sound too optimistic but you do see a lot of tokenism going on.

[00:14:08] And then of course we saw in the last election how the mandatory one of the mere or the vice mere or the deputy mere I'm sorry.

[00:14:19] Either one has to be of the you know of one of the two agendas right.

[00:14:25] So what we saw was we saw this unholy alliances between the parties among parties and that completely through the women off.

[00:14:33] And so this election we ended up not getting majority of the seats so the ratios kind of declined number one.

[00:14:40] Number two I mean we talk and there are a lot of narratives that are out there that are not quite correct.

[00:14:46] So when we talk about women's representation in the public administration in public sector, especially in public service works.

[00:14:55] We're told that 33% of the women you know they come from the quota system well that's not wrong but it's 33% of the 45%.

[00:15:05] Right so it's like 45% of the total quota of which 33% of that goes to women so it amounts to around 15-16% more than that.

[00:15:14] And so these are the narratives that are out there.

[00:15:17] So despite laws, these are the cleavages that are there that we need to kind of iron out and make it more equal more more leveled.

[00:15:25] And again as far as I mean even the quota system we have quota in place but what we've seen is maybe because of the social political perspective or social cultural perspective.

[00:15:39] A lot of women who were talented, a lot of women who are deserving they kind of you know what we've seen through research is they do shun being seen as somebody who's come in from the quota system using the quota system as opposed to the free competition.

[00:15:54] And so there's that stigma attached to the entire quota system also that makes this issue murkier.

[00:16:02] So yeah it's one thing to make policies, it's one thing to kind of especially when the government is centralized very easy to make policies here in a centralized government.

[00:16:12] But then taking it to the hinterlands, taking it to the periphery and implementing it it's going to be and it has always been a major major challenge just because of the social cultural you know flavor that we have around I mean around about.

[00:16:26] piggybacking off of that let's talk about all these resistance against gender policies.

[00:16:33] Another common health practice is regarding how gender policies are sort of competing with development goals in itself and this is especially prevalent when resources are scarce and projects are urgent like most of the things on Nepal.

[00:16:51] How do you approach this perception and how can practice nurse best deal with this.

[00:16:56] It's really interesting how you frame that question because you know it's I think it's precisely because of that that we need gender equality and gender parity in policy making process see what happens is in public sector there's always this fiscal crunch that is there right I mean our tax collection system is not too robust and so we always have this fiscal crunch.

[00:17:15] So we don't have money and we really cannot afford to go wrong while making policies right because we don't have the money and we have to do with whatever we have we cannot afford to go wrong.

[00:17:24] And so we come up with policies majority of the time what we do what we've been doing so far is we've been importing policies from outside they've been you know they've been quote and quote.

[00:17:35] I don't know I don't like using the word donors but development partners let's put it that way or keen that we adopt a certain policy and then the encourages and of course there's money money attached to it and we do it.

[00:17:46] But now that we're kind of developing as a viable state we have to come up with our own policies because the people are getting more aware they're questioning they're getting more accountable they're making the government more accountable so we do have to make up our own on come up with our own policies and make our own policies.

[00:18:03] So we can implement them and you know deliver results but because of this fiscal crunch we cannot afford to go wrong and so for example just reading this this policy about some development agency where they went into one of the villages in India and they wanted to do a vaccination day you know they wanted to allocate a vaccination day and they chose a Tuesday.

[00:18:26] Apparently was the day where the village women would go to some hard buzzard to sell their their their you know produce and things like that.

[00:18:36] And so there was like a major failure and the reason why that happened was because women were not consulted they were not involved and so if you do not involve women so I mean any policy see 51% of the population is women and so for any policy that gets turned out of the system it has to cater to 51% of the stakeholders and if you do not go to the state.

[00:18:55] And if you do not get them on board if you do not ask them questions if you do not like you know tell them whether this particular policy is feasible or not.

[00:19:04] How are you to know whether that policy is going to be a success or you know be a failure so in order to avoid failures in order to avoid waste in order to make sure that the policies that we turn out a good policies that are not going to waste the state coffers the state that the money of the state.

[00:19:22] And so we have to make sure that all the stakeholders all the parties involved all the parties that basically will get impacted by the policies they have to get consulted they have to be brought on board they have to be you know ask questions and they have to give input while making those

[00:19:38] that does not happen a majority of the time it does not and that's the reason why development fails that's the reason why development projects fail because majority of the stakeholders are not consulted.

[00:19:48] And so for that very precise reason women need to be consulted they need to be on board while making policies and our our take is that well gender policies are soft kind of policy it's like you know it's not one of those very if I may say so sexy policy

[00:20:07] but one of those you know Monday in soft policies very ordinary policies and we just do it because there are a lot of pressure from outside and so we have to do it that's the mindset of majority of the policy makers majority of the the bureau men that out there but that's not the case.

[00:20:23] And so when you really come to the nuts and bolts of governance it actually makes sense from the effectiveness aspect from the efficiency aspect it really makes sense to involve the women because if you don't either the policy going to tank and again it's a waste so it again impacting the efficiency it's going to be ineffective so again impacting the effectiveness factor.

[00:20:48] And so the administration is not going to be a success at all administration of that particular policy of that particular policy project.

[00:20:55] No that makes a lot of sense and I think you answered my next question about why we need women representatives and these leadership positions but on the flip side let's talk a little bit about you know like we've seen a lot of.

[00:21:09] A lot of gendered debacles in our public sphere say from the equality to dissent and citizenship high profile gender based violence cases and sexist defamation you've been keen observer of political events in a pile of often focusing on women politics and policy spheres.

[00:21:30] So how have our women leaders been able to address the issues are they proactive in carrying such responsibilities of women issues and forwarding feminist politics what are your thoughts on that.

[00:21:43] Okay there's a history behind this also so you know once upon a time we used to have women parliamentary caucus my last angel was what it was called and once upon a time it was very active we still have it it's not quote unquote to active that's what majority of the critics say.

[00:21:59] But we do have it and if you go and talk to the members of the caucus what they say is that they basically encounter a lot of hurdles in factors so you know you have.

[00:22:10] You have party loyalty is that the phrases such as party loyalty is being flung at their faces saying well your loyalty is to your party first not to your you know your sorority and then of course party political pressures you have societal pressures sometimes.

[00:22:28] You have to decide on certain quote unquote controversial issues which basically gets a lot of rebuttal and a lot of negative backlash from society and if you look at violence against women in media in social media it's more men than women that actually get attacked and so they have to basically bear the brunt of all this.

[00:22:50] And so that is there it's there but at the same time just to be objective and just to objectively look at this in critique we're all part and parcel of the society right we're all social beings we're all products of the same society so regardless of how much we want to do it I guess there is that patriarchal residue in all of us.

[00:23:10] And so and I won't negate that particular fact also so the the women representatives that we send I don't know if it's fair on our part to expect them to be a hundred percent totally pro feminism and like you know they're part parcel of this society they're also they they also have you know patriarchal residue they may have misogynistic residues in them also because just because they are a lot of people.

[00:23:40] And so I don't know if it's fair to kind of scrutinize them like that but yeah I mean it would have been nice if they didn't have all these socio political cultural hurdles if they could do their job in a in a more uncomplicated man let's put it that way but that's not the case in a society is complicated social discourses are very very messy very complicated democracy is is complicated it's messy party politics.

[00:24:10] This is messier and so with all these blues you know women they go I mean with all these bagages they go into politics and and they have to operate as a lawmaker for women that's difficult it's not very easy it's difficult and it's not always nice being this one person who says no all the time it's not nice being this one person who who's like deemed this aggressive all the time or like you know shrill all the time so you just get like tired by that that kind of depiction.

[00:24:40] And so there's a question of your personality and of yourself and that's usually what happens the minute you open your mouth about women's issues people roll their eyes and you're basically you're like told it again there you go you're your your shrill self you're again in in this process so that's the reason why I guess that this way it's a lot of women law makers from actually actively and very very passionately making cases for women.

[00:25:10] But having said that I won't negate that that that shovnistic patriarchal residues in all of us so it's it's a difficult journey but we'll do it you know unlearning is hard but I think one step at a time we can do it so we'll see.

[00:25:28] No that makes sense that makes a lot of sense so let's move on to talking a little bit about what are some of the most urgent gender policies that you think needs attention right now.

[00:25:41] Gender policy I mean citizenship bill definitely is gendered very gendered I mean you know the discrimination between a dot and law and a son in law or a dot in law is seen as somebody who ought to get so there's that level of entitlement as a child.

[00:25:58] As far as daughter laws concern as far as son in law is concerned that's not the case meaning that a daughter does not have the same kind of privilege as a son or her partner does not have the same kind of privilege as the sons so that's of course that one policy that one law that comes to mind there are lot of laws like that another such policy I mean be it in the national level be it in local level.

[00:26:24] The entire 33% for me and I keep telling this to my students I mean yes the reason why we have a quota system is because we have a very lopsided system but I mean and I think I posted this in one of my social media platforms to so we were taught I mean political science students they get taught that.

[00:26:43] Revolutions occur because there was no representation right and so the slogans such as no taxation without representation was reached to basically get your social political rights and they were revolts that were carried out revolution that were carried out because there was no representation and we are basically given 33% and we are expected to be happy and content and satisfied about that why 33% when we you know when we are 51% of the total population.

[00:27:11] We are given 33% of the quota you know 33% of the seats that are there so I cannot understand that and that is one gendered policy that bothers me quite a bit I for one this generation my generation belongs to Gen X you know I'm a Gen X and so our generations always wondered about why our last generation was okay with this particular policy.

[00:27:36] Why were they you know so accepting of 33% why didn't they clamor for 50% or 51% as the very portion to the kind of population that we have but that comes to mind another thing is.

[00:27:51] You know in in state policies like directive directive principles of the state policies there and I forget which clause it is but we actually have something stated for a Kalmala so single woman like hapless.

[00:28:08] Nimo Kavanigo words something like that you know like the word that has been used is something that pinches and so even when we are talking about women friendly policy some of the policies are so patronizing very patriarchal and patronizing that it kind of stings and so giving monetary allegations to single women I don't know if it's a general

[00:28:29] neutral policy or not so these kind of things that come to mind you know there's so many policies that are out there that actually bear this very heavy burden of.

[00:28:39] You know or symbolizes a very gendered society so as of now I can think of these so you know even in state policies you have gendered state policies in laws you have gendered laws you know in

[00:28:58] electoral reforms or electoral laws they're like hidden gender norms that actually push women away I mean the norms that are there especially for Dalit women so you have quota for the Dalits and we have quota for the women so majority of the time what we are seeing is that in the Dalit quota a man usually gets it in women's quota a high caste woman usually gets it so it's usually the Dalit women that basically pay the but burden of these quotas so there are a lot of nuances that.

[00:29:27] So there's a lot of knowledge of the collective nuances that haven't been addressed by policies and I'd like to call them genders still so I don't know if.

[00:29:37] So just talking about how we've already addressed so much of issues,

[00:29:43] and there are so many things already in the pipeline.

[00:29:46] How can we create an environment that is better for gendered policies to come more?

[00:29:52] Do you think there are some countries that have created more successful gendered policies

[00:29:57] than others that Nipal can be inspired by?

[00:30:01] Yeah, I guess it's all a matter of time.

[00:30:05] A country that comes to mind is Ronda.

[00:30:07] Ronda wasn't doing too well, it was one of the least developed countries.

[00:30:12] But in Philippines also, I mean not in the same level,

[00:30:16] but Philippines is not one of the more developed countries so to speak.

[00:30:20] But as far as their political representation of women's concern,

[00:30:25] it's very, very impressive.

[00:30:27] Ronda is also very, you know, it's come out shining, it's very impressive.

[00:30:31] And again, as far as Ronda's concern, it's the same thing that they've done

[00:30:35] but I think taken a very aggressive policy of quota system,

[00:30:39] they've made sure that they've incorporated that and women have really taken advantage of that

[00:30:44] and they've come to the front line.

[00:30:46] And so that's one country that comes to mind.

[00:30:49] As far as we're concerned, I guess there are a lot of things that...

[00:30:55] It's not that we don't have it, it's not that we've not come so far, we have.

[00:30:59] It's not that we've not evolved in a positive manner we have,

[00:31:03] but there's evolution and there's a slump, you know, 2015 in India.

[00:31:09] There was that nearby case, the rib case that actually shook India

[00:31:16] and because we were right next door it shook us also.

[00:31:19] But there was a lot of misogynistic back lashes that happened after that.

[00:31:23] And then you have again instances of asset attacks that occur in the neighborhood

[00:31:27] like in Pakistan, Bangladesh and India.

[00:31:29] And we never used to have that.

[00:31:32] Now we're having around 40 cases a year or I'm sorry, I think so.

[00:31:37] I mean, I'm not too confident about the numbers again,

[00:31:40] but we never used to have that many, but now we are.

[00:31:43] We are increasing the number of asset attacks.

[00:31:48] And so I think what happens in the neighborhood also impacts

[00:31:52] Annabelle's gender equal evolution.

[00:31:57] But slowly we're getting there, I mean, as far as the public sector is concerned,

[00:32:01] we had around 11% when we started.

[00:32:05] Now I think we're 23 more than 23% in the public sector

[00:32:12] as far as the federal parliament is concerned 33% yes, but I'm hopeful

[00:32:17] in the local government around 40, 41%.

[00:32:20] So a little more than the quota that has been mentioned,

[00:32:23] hopeful, but let's see if we can push as aggressively as Ronda did or as Philippine's did.

[00:32:31] There are a lot of other countries like Iceland and Norway and others

[00:32:34] that were already developed that are doing so well,

[00:32:36] but I'd be more interested in looking at countries similar to us,

[00:32:40] countries that are not first world countries,

[00:32:42] countries that are still developing or underdeveloped

[00:32:45] and see as to how they've taken their policies

[00:32:47] and maybe learn best practices from them.

[00:32:49] And the two countries that come to mind are Philippines and one.

[00:32:53] That's very informative.

[00:32:54] I do know that about Ronda and Philippines.

[00:32:57] Do you foresee that Nepal can ever reach to that aggressive point

[00:33:02] where we can shake the country up?

[00:33:04] I do actually, we've been projected to reach that space in 2037, 38, I think.

[00:33:12] So I do, I am hopeful and I do believe that we can do that

[00:33:15] and because Nepal is a small state,

[00:33:18] we're not a very big nation state, we're a small country.

[00:33:22] And if we really put our heart in mind into it, I think it's doable.

[00:33:26] Anything is doable in Nepal.

[00:33:28] We just have to have the political will to do it.

[00:33:30] And I think things are attainable, achievable here in Nepal.

[00:33:35] And now it's a federal system of government

[00:33:38] so it may be a little difficult, little more difficult than how it used to be

[00:33:42] or how easy it used to be for policymakers to actually come up with policies

[00:33:47] implemented and set like a template for it.

[00:33:50] But I think it's still doable because we are small.

[00:33:54] That's fair.

[00:33:55] When you're talking about political will,

[00:33:58] what do you think we can do?

[00:34:00] Some of the things that we can do to, you know, garner that?

[00:34:04] Political will, that's a very heavy question.

[00:34:09] So political will is something that actually,

[00:34:13] it's a will of the masses.

[00:34:17] It's an aggregate will.

[00:34:18] It's not just a fragment, it kind of will.

[00:34:22] It's an aggregate will.

[00:34:23] And to make that aggregate will, we all have to come together as civil society.

[00:34:30] Civil society has to be really, really robust, very vibrant.

[00:34:34] And one thing that I see lacking here in Nepal is that

[00:34:36] it's that involvement of civil society, you know,

[00:34:41] among civil society members.

[00:34:43] I don't know for some reason,

[00:34:45] I just don't know why,

[00:34:46] but I sense a lot of political apathy here.

[00:34:50] A lot of distruntlement with the state

[00:34:52] and there's that notion that actually negates that government is us.

[00:34:57] Whereas it is us, right?

[00:34:58] Because, you know, it's a democracy.

[00:34:59] We choose our representatives.

[00:35:02] We send them it is us.

[00:35:03] But then there's that trend of othering the government

[00:35:06] where you see yourself as somebody and then the government is them.

[00:35:09] It's like them how they don't work for you

[00:35:12] and like, how they are so corrupt.

[00:35:14] But I think we need to look at ourselves hard in the mirror

[00:35:17] and say that it's us.

[00:35:18] So if the government is corrupt,

[00:35:20] it is us, you know, it's all of us.

[00:35:22] And so that will,

[00:35:24] it's a very again, it's a very,

[00:35:27] it's a very heavy question,

[00:35:28] but I think a lot of civic political engagement,

[00:35:31] especially by the youth, a lot of engagement with the youths,

[00:35:36] a lot of engaging the youths in policy making process.

[00:35:38] I think that can actually develop a really viable, positive political will.

[00:35:47] I don't know if I answered your question, but it's fantastically.

[00:35:50] And I'm afraid we've almost come to the end of the show.

[00:35:53] Thank you so much for your time

[00:35:55] and is there any parting messages that you'd like to?

[00:35:59] Yeah, of course.

[00:36:00] And I say this to my students all the time.

[00:36:02] I mean, our generation maybe didn't do as much as we should have done.

[00:36:06] And again, this is,

[00:36:08] this is,

[00:36:09] I say this with a lot of guilt and with a lot of apprehension.

[00:36:14] But I think the hope is now on this generation.

[00:36:17] And I think if this generation wills it,

[00:36:20] I think Nepal can really see in a good days bright, sunny, good,

[00:36:24] happy days.

[00:36:25] And if you can believe in Nepal,

[00:36:28] and if you can believe that Nepal we can do it,

[00:36:31] that, you know,

[00:36:33] that we can develop our robust policy making process

[00:36:36] that we can come up with robust policies

[00:36:38] that we can all benefit from creating this reality and society.

[00:36:43] I think we can still do it.

[00:36:45] So that's my parting message.

[00:36:47] That was a very hopeful one.

[00:36:49] Thank you so much for this, Ajitta.

[00:36:51] This was a very insightful conversation.

[00:36:53] And it was an absolute pleasure to have you here.

[00:36:56] Thank you so much for having me.

[00:36:57] Thank you.

[00:36:58] Thank you.

[00:37:01] Thanks for listening to BADS by PEI.

[00:37:03] I hope you enjoyed UKEE's conversation with Sicheta on Power and Parity,

[00:37:07] charting Nepal's gender policy journey.

[00:37:10] Today's episode was produced by me, Kushihang and Nuretseh Nri

[00:37:14] with support from Sonia Jimmy and Ridesh Sapkota.

[00:37:17] The episode was recorded at the PEI studio and was edited by Nuretseh Nri

[00:37:22] and Ridesh Sapkota.

[00:37:24] Our theme music is courtesy of Rhoichakya from Zindaban.

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[00:38:04] Thanks once again for me, Kushih.

[00:38:06] We will see you soon in our next episode.