Padma Sundar Joshi on Navigating Solutions to Kathmandu's Water Crisis: Hiti and Beyond

#Ep.080

Padma Sundar Joshi is the Vice President of Madan Bhandari University of Science and Technology. He has more than a decade of experience in. urban planning and environment. He has worked with the city office on projects like. the Municipal Infrastructure Improvement Project and the Kathmandu Valley mapping program. He has published books and a series of articles on urban development, including a recent publication titled The Hiti System: Past, Present, and Future.

Lasata and Padma discuss the intricate relationship between. water and urbanism in Kathmandu Valley, focusing on the traditional water management system known as Hiti Pranali. Covering historical backgrounds and the current challenges the valley faces, including water shortages and climate change impacts, they explore the potential of traditional systems like Hiti in addressing modern water management issues. The conversation extends to ongoing projects and challenges restoring the Hiti and other traditional water systems, emphasizing their significance as sustainable, nature-based solutions.

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[00:00.000 --> 00:21.060] A policy discussing series brought to you by Policy Entrepreneurs Inc. [00:21.060 --> 00:27.240] I am Pragati Karki, in today's episode we have the iconic lifestyle Joshi in conversation [00:27.240 --> 00:34.980] with Padma Sunda Joshi on, navigating solution to Kathmandu's water crisis, Hiti and beyond. [00:34.980 --> 00:41.040] Padma Sunda Joshi is the vice president of Madanwandari University of Science and Technology. [00:41.040 --> 00:45.760] He has more than a decade of experience in urban planning and environment. [00:45.760 --> 00:50.560] He has worked with the city offices on projects like the Municipal Infrastructure in Human [00:50.560 --> 00:54.480] Projects and the Kathmandu Valley Mapping Program. [00:54.480 --> 01:00.600] He has published books and series of articles on urban development, including a recent publication [01:00.600 --> 01:04.560] titled the Hiti System, Fast, Present and Future. [01:04.560 --> 01:11.200] Lasta and Padma discuss the intricate relation between water and urbanism in Kathmandu Valley, [01:11.200 --> 01:16.440] focusing on the traditional water management system known as Hiti Pranali. [01:16.440 --> 01:21.480] Covering historical backgrounds and the current challenges the valley faces, including water [01:21.480 --> 01:26.520] shortages and climate change impact, they explore the potential of traditional system [01:26.520 --> 01:31.280] like Hiti in addressing modern water management issues. [01:31.280 --> 01:37.280] The conversation extends to ongoing projects and challenges restoring the Hiti and other [01:37.280 --> 01:42.920] traditional water system, emphasizing the significance as sustainable nature-based solution. [01:42.920 --> 01:48.280] We hope you enjoy the conversation. [01:48.280 --> 01:51.160] Namaste, this is Lasta Joshi. [01:51.160 --> 01:56.840] Namaste, this is Padma Joshi. [01:56.840 --> 02:00.440] Padma, thank you for joining us today at POTS by PI. [02:00.440 --> 02:02.920] It's my pleasure. [02:02.920 --> 02:07.520] Today we'll be talking about the relation of water and urbanism in relation to Kathmandu [02:07.520 --> 02:08.520] Valley. [02:08.520 --> 02:14.520] So, water is integrately woven into the fabric of human life and it is not just important [02:14.520 --> 02:20.080] for survival but also vital for social, cultural and economic development. [02:20.080 --> 02:25.120] Speaking in this line, there are numerous water architectures that have existed in the [02:25.120 --> 02:28.280] valley's urban tapestry since its inception. [02:28.280 --> 02:32.520] Padma, you have been working in urban planning sector of Kathmandu Valley for many, many [02:32.520 --> 02:37.800] years and have been extensively focused on the revival and documentation of the valley's [02:37.800 --> 02:42.840] traditional water management system, locally known as Hiti. [02:42.840 --> 02:48.680] You have also written a book on the subject aptly titled Hiti Pranali, which chronicles [02:48.680 --> 02:52.440] the history and significance of that mechanism. [02:52.440 --> 02:56.040] So let's first start with introducing Hiti Pranali itself. [02:56.040 --> 03:01.640] So what is this Hiti and we have also used the term Pranali, which translates to system [03:01.640 --> 03:05.640] in English instead of using the term Hiti alone. [03:05.640 --> 03:11.480] So what significance does the addition of Pranali hold in this context? [03:11.480 --> 03:17.840] Well, when you see our traditional settlements in Kathmandu Valley, you know, almost all of [03:17.840 --> 03:23.760] the settlements, the traditional settlements that situated on the tar land, when I say [03:23.760 --> 03:27.520] tar land, it's an upland, not on the river banks. [03:27.520 --> 03:34.120] The cities of those days, I'm not talking about 100 or 200 years, it's about 1000 years [03:34.120 --> 03:35.760] or more, right? [03:35.760 --> 03:44.640] Those cities grew that expanded on the upland, not on the river bank, unlike the civilizations [03:44.640 --> 03:51.360] in other parts of the world, and how that can be possible without having adequate water. [03:51.360 --> 04:00.320] So a Hiti system, what I say the system, Hiti system is actually that was developed in [04:00.320 --> 04:06.320] the due course of, you know, that growth of the settlements, where they have to invent [04:06.320 --> 04:11.240] new ideas to bring water in their upland settlements. [04:11.240 --> 04:17.600] And they use brilliantly the storm water, as well as the groundwater, all three forms [04:17.600 --> 04:25.760] of water, they utilized to a system and what we call the Hiti system, where they have harvested [04:25.760 --> 04:32.960] water from all possible sources to linearly flow water in their settlements. [04:32.960 --> 04:35.400] So that is what the Hiti system is. [04:35.400 --> 04:43.240] So could you let us know when this finale, this Hiti finale, began and where is it now? [04:43.240 --> 04:49.880] Well, if we dig into the history, we don't know the exact date when the Hiti was invented. [04:49.880 --> 04:57.720] But you know, if you go to the historical books, the first in a written form, there is what [04:57.720 --> 05:03.960] we call the Tiasapo, a written book of a traditional time, a very old time, that was [05:03.960 --> 05:11.160] found from Swembu, where they have mentioned about a Pranali or a Hiti Pranali. [05:11.160 --> 05:17.080] So that is the first one in the, as far as I know, historically we found that that is [05:17.080 --> 05:19.360] around 400 E.T. [05:19.360 --> 05:24.360] So that means the Hiti must have been developed long before that. [05:24.360 --> 05:32.040] So if you see historically the Hiti that is being running even today is the manga Hiti, [05:32.760 --> 05:39.800] next to the pattern that were square, the Hiti was established in 570 E.D. [05:39.800 --> 05:44.200] So it has got a stone inscription there that mentions that. [05:44.200 --> 05:52.200] The person who installed that Hiti, who built that Hiti, he also built another one in Hanigang [05:52.200 --> 05:54.360] in 550 E.D. [05:54.360 --> 05:56.360] The same person called Baravi. [05:56.360 --> 05:59.960] Baravi is the grandson of the Great King Manadeb. [06:00.920 --> 06:05.400] So that shows that the historical, this is a very, very old system. [06:05.400 --> 06:10.680] And not necessarily the whole components of the Hiti were developed on those days, but [06:10.680 --> 06:15.560] it was further enhanced in the coming later years. [06:15.560 --> 06:20.120] So since we are talking about components, what are these components that form the whole system [06:20.120 --> 06:21.320] of Hiti today? [06:21.320 --> 06:27.240] You know, the Hiti, it's a combination of a well and a spring. [06:27.960 --> 06:34.040] In the mountain slopes, most of the places you will find the spring and the water coming out [06:34.040 --> 06:35.400] from the ground, right? [06:35.400 --> 06:41.960] Those spring sprouts, spring areas are protected and the water is collected and brought to the [06:41.960 --> 06:45.320] place where it is needed in the settlement. [06:45.320 --> 06:51.240] And when they bring that from the spring, the spring could be the spring water coming out from [06:51.240 --> 06:56.760] the ground over the ground, but also there can be water aquifer in the ground, [06:56.840 --> 06:59.960] where there is an underground flow of water. [06:59.960 --> 07:08.520] So people on those days, they found that and they collected those water in the terracotta pipe. [07:08.520 --> 07:13.960] They brought it up to their settlement, digging on the ground, right? [07:13.960 --> 07:18.120] So these channels, these gutters, they bring water to the place. [07:18.120 --> 07:24.440] And so when you say bringing water on that way, that means it is a gravity flow. [07:24.440 --> 07:30.280] So with the gravity flow that brought to the settlement and where they dig a hole and there, [07:30.280 --> 07:33.560] they install the Hiti, the stone spout. [07:33.560 --> 07:35.800] And that is how they bring the water. [07:35.800 --> 07:43.720] But when I say this, Hiti has the intake and they have got a gutter and then the stone spout. [07:43.720 --> 07:51.720] More than that, to augment the aquifer, they might have pond upstream of that spring. [07:51.720 --> 08:00.520] And then to feed the pond, they might have rasculo or the irrigation canal brought from a surface flow. [08:00.520 --> 08:06.920] So that is how the rasculo, the irrigation canal, then you have got the spring, the intake structure, [08:06.920 --> 08:12.680] and then you have got a gutter, what we call what we say in Nivari is a Hiti do. [08:12.680 --> 08:16.200] And with that Hiti do, that is brought to Hiti manga. [08:16.200 --> 08:19.480] That is the stone spout from where the water comes out. [08:20.040 --> 08:27.080] And where you get the water, you face water, that is a Hiti hole that is called in Nivari Hiti gah. [08:27.080 --> 08:29.720] So this is how these are the normal components. [08:29.720 --> 08:36.040] And more than that, there's one more component since the water is collected from the pit, [08:36.040 --> 08:38.120] the excess water has to flow. [08:38.120 --> 08:40.840] So you have to have a drain out system as well. [08:42.040 --> 08:45.720] So can you also speak up more on the drain out system? [08:45.720 --> 08:48.440] What happens to the water that is not being used? [08:48.440 --> 08:55.640] So since it is something like Hiti is something like bringing the spring or [08:56.200 --> 08:58.280] bringing a waterfall in your settlement. [08:59.320 --> 09:01.800] Once you use that water, that is okay. [09:01.800 --> 09:04.840] Once it is not used, but it continuously flows. [09:04.840 --> 09:08.520] So you have to have a very good drainage system. [09:08.520 --> 09:15.320] And on those days, what they do is to utilize water, they do not just let the water go [09:15.320 --> 09:19.240] flow down, but either they collect it in a small pond. [09:19.240 --> 09:24.760] That water can again be utilized for several other auxiliary functions, [09:24.760 --> 09:28.520] or they will take that water to irrigate the nearby farm. [09:28.520 --> 09:34.840] So that is how that water, if you like the wasted water, can be further utilized. [09:35.880 --> 09:40.680] Yeah, it seems like this sustainable form of water management. [09:40.760 --> 09:45.880] But why did we end up not continuing the traditional water management system? [09:45.880 --> 09:48.920] Well, this is definitely a sustainable way of management. [09:50.040 --> 09:52.360] What do you mean by sustainable? [09:52.360 --> 09:53.640] It is long lasting. [09:53.640 --> 09:57.160] You have got little, what you call maintenance, right? [09:57.160 --> 09:57.960] It continues. [09:59.000 --> 10:05.080] Now I'm talking about the Hiti in the first one in record. [10:05.960 --> 10:13.400] That was established in 578 and now in 2023, still that Hiti is running. [10:13.400 --> 10:16.120] How sustainable this system is. [10:16.120 --> 10:19.720] This is just an example of that sustainability. [10:19.720 --> 10:27.240] But unfortunately, in recent past years, actually in recent past, last 60, 70 years, [10:28.120 --> 10:31.160] we have destroyed several of those Hiti systems. [10:31.240 --> 10:36.440] You see, many of those Hiti's do not trickle water, right? [10:36.440 --> 10:37.720] They are dried. [10:37.720 --> 10:39.880] Some are dried for the whole year. [10:39.880 --> 10:42.760] Some are dried only during the dry season. [10:43.480 --> 10:45.800] But there are problems in Hiti system. [10:46.360 --> 10:53.400] The main problem in Hiti system is, you know, the maintenance of the system is neglected. [10:54.200 --> 11:00.040] The sources do not know, one unfortunate part of the Hiti system is, [11:00.040 --> 11:08.040] we do not have a map where exactly the intake is located and from where the gutter is being [11:08.040 --> 11:09.160] constructed. [11:09.160 --> 11:16.200] So without that map, it is very difficult to know where these are flowing and how this [11:16.200 --> 11:17.800] can be maintained. [11:17.800 --> 11:24.680] So for that purpose, the biggest challenge is to map the Hiti system, the whole from the [11:24.680 --> 11:27.560] intake to the spout and also the drainage. [11:28.440 --> 11:34.680] Well, in earlier time, what happens was, people know from grandfather to his son, [11:34.680 --> 11:39.240] son to his son, that is how they know and they maintain it. [11:39.240 --> 11:45.080] Now, in due course of time, when we have this pipe to water system and these systems were [11:45.080 --> 11:50.840] forgotten because pipe to water is much more easier and the government is managing that. [11:50.840 --> 11:55.400] So the community started, you know, saying that, well, if the government takes a [11:55.400 --> 11:58.440] tax care of that, why should we bother about this Hiti? [11:58.440 --> 12:07.320] And that was the way Hiti's were slowly and gradually neglected and you see the situation now. [12:08.280 --> 12:12.920] Before we dive further into our conversation in understanding these traditional water [12:13.560 --> 12:20.360] system, I think we should first establish what problems we face regarding water use in the valley. [12:21.080 --> 12:27.960] So as an expert who has keenly observed and worked in this area, what do you regard are [12:27.960 --> 12:33.640] the top issues that our valley is experiencing or is set to struggle with in the future in [12:33.640 --> 12:36.120] terms of water consumption and management? [12:37.000 --> 12:41.880] Well, when we say water consumption and management, there are three types of water that [12:42.760 --> 12:44.360] are challenging to us. [12:44.360 --> 12:48.680] First is we need to drink water, drinking water, household water. [12:48.680 --> 12:54.120] Now, domestic use or industrial use whatever, the use of water that the cleaner water. [12:54.680 --> 12:59.480] And second challenge is again, the wastewater that we produce. [12:59.480 --> 13:07.320] As we all know that 85% of the water that we bring use at home will be [13:07.320 --> 13:09.240] discharged as wastewater. [13:09.800 --> 13:16.600] Whether you take bath, you wash your clothes, or you use in your kitchen, or you use it to clean [13:16.600 --> 13:18.440] up your toilet, whatever. [13:18.440 --> 13:22.280] So 85% is going to be turned into wastewater. [13:22.280 --> 13:25.880] So how to manage that wastewater is the second challenge. [13:26.440 --> 13:29.080] The third challenge is the stormwater again. [13:29.080 --> 13:34.120] Since Kathmandu valley has grown half as early without any plan. [13:34.680 --> 13:40.360] So all the water that flows and most of the time people do not like the rainwater and they [13:40.360 --> 13:46.440] want to have a drain to bring that water to the river as quickly as possible. [13:47.400 --> 13:54.920] So if that is the case, then the groundwater, the water cannot penetrate or infiltrate into [13:54.920 --> 13:56.280] the groundwater table. [13:56.280 --> 13:59.080] So that means there is a scarcity of water. [13:59.080 --> 14:01.960] The groundwater is depleting on the other side. [14:01.960 --> 14:09.000] In the river there is a big flow when there is a rain and after some time there is no water. [14:09.000 --> 14:14.360] So these kind of three challenges I see in water management in Kathmandu valley, [14:14.440 --> 14:25.320] particularly because of the ever-increasing population and B with unplanned development. [14:26.840 --> 14:31.960] So with the challenges in water consumption and management that the valley faces and is [14:31.960 --> 14:37.880] likely to continue facing, where can we situate the traditional water management system? [14:38.440 --> 14:43.640] Can traditional water management system like Hiti Granale in particular be an asset in [14:43.640 --> 14:49.800] overcoming these looming issues, especially given the fact that there are many modern [14:49.800 --> 14:53.480] alternatives that could be considered relatively more efficient. [14:53.480 --> 15:00.840] Well modern systems are more convenient that I can say but efficiency is something different. [15:01.640 --> 15:06.520] You know convenience is there because in earlier time people have to go to the stone [15:06.520 --> 15:12.600] spout and face their water buckets right or water vessels and you feel it, you bring to the [15:12.600 --> 15:19.720] house, right? There is quite some heavy work they need to do and unfortunately that all has [15:19.720 --> 15:25.080] to be done by the women. That's another the gender issue you can see in the traditional [15:25.960 --> 15:34.200] society. That is one part but nowadays the tap is next to your room, next to your bedroom. [15:34.200 --> 15:40.680] There is a toilet or a bathroom or a kitchen. So definitely that's a convenience is there. [15:40.680 --> 15:45.480] But that convenience has also brought a lot of wastage of water. [15:45.480 --> 15:52.200] The water consumption has increased not only due to population but the quantity of water per capita [15:52.200 --> 15:59.960] use is so high that you need more and more water, right? So that is the challenge. [15:59.960 --> 16:04.440] But where this water comes from? Water comes from either from the rivers, [16:05.320 --> 16:10.360] the storm water, the surface water or from the ground. And in Cut from the valley, [16:11.640 --> 16:18.040] let's forget for a while about Malamsi. In Cut from the other wise what we are drinking is [16:18.920 --> 16:26.200] almost 30 to 35% of the water that we are drinking is groundwater. So groundwater is not a [16:26.200 --> 16:31.640] shallow water. On the ground also there are two types of water, right? One shallow water that is [16:31.640 --> 16:40.280] maybe 20 or 30 feet or 60 feet below. But there is water which is more than 200 meters below, [16:41.080 --> 16:48.440] 200 meters below. That is what we call a fossil water. That water reaches there after traveling for [16:48.440 --> 16:55.400] several not decades, even centuries, right? 100, 200, 500 years back. There are some water [16:55.480 --> 17:02.520] entered into the ground in Sibapuri area and that water has reached to the deep water aquifer [17:02.520 --> 17:08.680] after 100 or 200 years. There are literatures out there. People are doing so many research in [17:08.680 --> 17:18.120] that aspect also. Well, that water is brought pumped and that we are using as if it is free. [17:18.120 --> 17:25.080] So that's a fossil water that we are using. And what are the consequences? Water table is depleting. [17:25.640 --> 17:31.400] It's not only depleting because of that whole Cut from the floor is sinking. There are studies [17:31.400 --> 17:38.680] that shows that Cut from the valley is sinking one to two centimeter every year, right? And that is [17:38.680 --> 17:45.240] going to be a huge ecological or geological challenge for Cut from the valley's sustainability also. [17:45.800 --> 17:53.240] That is one part. But now on the other side, if you see how Hiti can support that, what Hiti is [17:53.240 --> 18:01.320] doing is you have got a rainwater that slowly, gradually penetrates and infiltrates into the water [18:01.320 --> 18:09.560] table and that water we consume. And every year, the same rain during the monsoon, we have plenty [18:09.560 --> 18:17.400] of rain and that water is replenished, unlike the deep water aquifer. These are replenishable. [18:17.480 --> 18:24.360] So because of that, we can easily utilize that water. And this is in a way, you know, [18:24.360 --> 18:31.880] that will be for the people, that is one of the last resort for water. If you do not get any water, [18:31.880 --> 18:37.480] for example, now the millimetry water is in Kathmandu. Before that, if you see all in the [18:37.480 --> 18:44.600] spouts or in the wells, all the poor people are surviving with that water. So that's the last [18:44.680 --> 18:52.200] resort that we have. So it is definitely beneficial for the community to conserve those systems so [18:52.200 --> 18:57.480] that you have got the water during the water is cast time, you have got at least a reliable [18:57.480 --> 19:05.720] source there. So in that respect, the Hiti system is so important. But you can see also from the [19:06.360 --> 19:13.240] historical or here from the heritage point of view, these are the human knowledge, right? The [19:13.240 --> 19:21.480] wisdom that was used long, long time back to build it. So it's for this generation, it is our [19:21.480 --> 19:28.520] responsibility also to conserve those heritage, the water heritage. How does a Hiti fair with [19:28.520 --> 19:35.240] contemporary patterns of water pollution? Are there any ways in which the system needs modification to [19:35.240 --> 19:41.720] better perform against modern problems? Well again, that is the point I tried to explain [19:41.720 --> 19:49.400] earlier also. The more you have got water, the more you have got polluted water, right? And on top of [19:49.400 --> 19:57.320] that, in earlier time, in the last 30, 40, 50 years back, in Kathmandu, there is a kind of wave. [19:58.200 --> 20:04.040] For the hygiene purpose, for sanitation purpose, people should build their own toilet, [20:04.840 --> 20:11.400] but they built their own toilet in their own house. But the waste from the toilet, [20:11.880 --> 20:18.120] the black water, what we call the fishes and the urine, these are all collected into a pit. [20:18.120 --> 20:25.400] And when you collect that into a pit, that means those pits from there, that leaks and that goes, [20:25.400 --> 20:33.080] that pollutes the groundwater. The Hiti water that used to be clean for drinking in earlier time. [20:33.080 --> 20:39.880] Now, if you see in most of the Hiti's, the water has a pollution, it's a polluted water. And if you [20:39.880 --> 20:48.040] test it, what you will find is, you know, E. coli and all those substances you will find there. [20:48.040 --> 20:55.320] So that means we have already polluted our groundwater. I will not suggest anyone to drink [20:55.320 --> 21:01.480] water from Hiti directly. You need some kind of treatment like boiling or some other chemical [21:01.480 --> 21:08.520] treatment need to be done. Other ways in which Hiti and other indigenous water management system [21:08.520 --> 21:12.440] provide an age in tackling issues induced by climate change. [21:13.880 --> 21:21.800] Yes, I think Hiti is again, could be one of the solution. I will not say solution at least. [21:21.800 --> 21:30.360] That helps to fight against climate change as well. Because, you know, in Hiti, what it does is, [21:30.360 --> 21:38.040] during the rain, the water is collected. Now, we need to do extra work to reach out our [21:38.040 --> 21:47.400] groundwater table. Earlier time, it was cut from the town of cut from everywhere. You see the green [21:47.400 --> 21:53.880] field, meaning those are the agricultural land. In agricultural land, the soil has a time to [21:53.880 --> 22:01.160] absorb the rain and that will percolate, infiltrate and percolate into the groundwater table. [22:01.160 --> 22:07.720] Now, on those agricultural land, all the houses has been constructed. Once the houses are constructed, [22:07.880 --> 22:13.160] there is no chance of percolating. You have got a house, you have got a roof. From the roof, [22:13.160 --> 22:21.320] you have got a gutter and bring that water to the stormwater, the grains. Not only that, [22:21.320 --> 22:29.560] even in your courtyard, in your front yard, all it has been plastered to keep your shoes or to keep [22:29.560 --> 22:36.760] your legs dry. What happens is, there is no possibility of recharging the groundwater. [22:37.240 --> 22:44.520] So, if we are fighting against this climate change, we definitely need a recharging system. [22:45.080 --> 22:51.000] So, if we are sealing the surface, then we have to have a recharge wells and there are techniques [22:51.000 --> 22:55.560] how to recharge the groundwater table. And we need to do that. Without doing that, [22:55.560 --> 23:06.600] the groundwater table will replenish. The water table will go down, draw down. [23:07.240 --> 23:14.520] Hi there, this is Somit Renupani from Policy Entrepreneursing. We hope you are enjoying parts by P.E.I. [23:15.320 --> 23:20.360] As you know, creating this show takes a lot of time and resources and we rely on the support of [23:20.360 --> 23:25.480] our community to keep things going. If you've been enjoying the show and would like to help [23:25.480 --> 23:32.360] us out, we'd really appreciate it if you could become a patron on Patreon. Patreon is a platform [23:32.440 --> 23:37.240] that allows listeners like you to support creators like us with a small monthly donation. [23:37.800 --> 23:43.000] The support will go a long way in helping us continue creating high quality content for you. [23:43.800 --> 23:48.040] So, if you're interested in supporting a show and becoming a part of our community, [23:48.040 --> 23:54.760] head on over to Patreon and become a patron today. We can find us at patreon.com slash [23:54.760 --> 24:00.440] POTS by P.E.I. Every little bit helps and we can't thank you enough for your support. [24:00.440 --> 24:02.200] Now let's get back to the episode. [24:07.320 --> 24:12.840] Let's take a moment to summarize and reflect on our conversation so far. I guess it would not be [24:12.840 --> 24:18.840] wrong to say that the Hiti system encapsulates the concept of flow energy, nature-based solution [24:18.840 --> 24:25.160] for sustainable water management in a single system. But the big question today is, is it even [24:25.160 --> 24:33.480] possible to restore the Hiti system? If yes, what form of efforts would such a restoration require? [24:34.200 --> 24:40.840] Well, definitely we can restore Hiti's but the challenge is how much effort is needed. [24:42.120 --> 24:48.520] When I say effort is needed, technically almost all of the Hiti's can be restored [24:49.240 --> 24:56.680] technically, I don't see much problem. The problem is governance. When I say governance, [24:56.680 --> 25:02.920] the policy, the government, whether they want to do it or not. Most of the time, the municipal [25:02.920 --> 25:11.720] mayors and the political representatives, they all talk about these fancy words like, [25:12.680 --> 25:21.720] what are the Hiti system? We need to restore this and that. But you see, except one or two mayors [25:21.720 --> 25:30.840] that I know, none of them are supporting this financially, policy-wise. They haven't invested. [25:31.880 --> 25:35.640] Let's talk about the election one and a half years back. [25:36.600 --> 25:43.560] How many Hiti's has been restored? Who has done that? No. So these are mostly lip service [25:43.560 --> 25:49.560] the politicians are doing. That is the unfortunate part of it. But if you would like to do that, [25:49.560 --> 25:57.080] that can be done. There are some initiatives that is taking place. I can explain you later on that. [25:57.080 --> 26:04.680] But how this can be done is from two ways, we have to see not only the stone spout, [26:04.680 --> 26:13.480] the Hiti, the Hittigga. We have to look into the whole system, meaning its source, its conduit, [26:13.480 --> 26:20.760] and then it's from where the water is coming out and then the drainage. So even when we talk about [26:20.760 --> 26:28.440] source, that is the what we call groundwater table, groundwater aquifer. These aquifers need to be [26:29.000 --> 26:36.280] supported by additional water. For that, in earlier time, people have built ponds, [26:37.400 --> 26:43.960] or in English they call it rather tank. The tanks have been built and these tanks collect [26:43.960 --> 26:51.400] water, rainwater, not only rainwater as well as the surface water from the streams. The water [26:51.400 --> 26:58.120] is collected there and the pond slowly, gradually reaches the ground and that is how [26:58.120 --> 27:04.920] that reaches to the groundwater table. I mean the aquifer and from where we get perineal [27:05.960 --> 27:12.840] the water in stone spouts. That is where we need to look into all the components, not only one. [27:12.840 --> 27:17.400] Most of the time the municipalities, what they are doing is they are decorating the [27:18.120 --> 27:23.960] stone spout. That's good. That's a good intention. But that is not sufficient because if we do not [27:23.960 --> 27:31.080] have water in a Hittigga, in a Hiti, then it is just a decorative piece, nothing more than that. [27:31.080 --> 27:37.560] So that part is very, very important for the what we call reviving the Hiti system. [27:38.920 --> 27:44.520] So you have touched basis on some of the challenges that we may face while revitalizing [27:44.520 --> 27:50.760] this traditional system, especially in the terms of monetary aspect. But there is one aspect [27:50.760 --> 27:57.800] which is in terms of knowledge because as we know there has been generational gap in transfer of this [27:57.800 --> 28:03.880] indigenous craftsmanship that had been overlooked for a very long time. So how can we navigate or [28:03.880 --> 28:11.320] move around this gap in order to revive this traditional water management system? [28:11.880 --> 28:18.040] Well, yeah, there is gap, definitely there is gap. But you know, as you said earlier, it is the [28:18.040 --> 28:24.760] low-energy nature-based system. So the technology is rather simple. It's not that complex. [28:24.760 --> 28:30.520] The only thing is why it is done, how it is done. Just ask few questions then if you understand [28:30.520 --> 28:38.120] that you can manage the Hiti system. That's not a big problem. But yes, there is a need to propagate, [28:38.120 --> 28:45.720] they need to educate people how this system works. A podcast like this could be one of the [28:45.720 --> 28:53.880] method of doing that. But there are other ways also to educate people how the Hiti system works. [28:53.880 --> 28:59.240] That can be done. That should not be a big challenge. The big challenge is more, as I said [28:59.240 --> 29:05.400] earlier, the governance part. There should be the willingness at the political level, [29:05.400 --> 29:10.040] in a real sense, the willingness, what I mean, is in real sense they would like to [29:10.040 --> 29:16.360] conserve these Hiti systems. So you have talked about traditional bonds within the traditional [29:17.160 --> 29:24.760] water management system of Hiti-Pranali or Hiti system. So as the part of revitalization of the [29:24.760 --> 29:31.960] system, there has been a lot of work I hear in Kathmandu Valley to restore these traditional [29:31.960 --> 29:38.760] bonds, which you have also been part of. And there has been a lot of conversation around [29:38.760 --> 29:46.680] the need to restore such bonds in the traditional architecture. So could you enlighten us on what [29:46.680 --> 29:53.160] is the significance of bonds as an asset to our modern urban settlement and consumption? Is it [29:53.160 --> 29:59.640] just to enhance the urban aesthetic or does it have a larger service on the environmental level? [30:00.600 --> 30:09.000] Well, I think the urban aesthetic is a byproduct when you install a pond because you have got water. [30:09.000 --> 30:15.800] You have got a water body next to your house. I think it's a pride and that's a good part of it. [30:15.800 --> 30:22.440] But more than that, when people build pond, I think it is not for that aesthetics. It's more for [30:22.440 --> 30:28.680] the function. So as I said earlier, these ponds, they collect rainwater, you know, [30:28.840 --> 30:33.480] Kathmandu Valley, not only Kathmandu Valley, the whole region, the South Asian region, [30:33.480 --> 30:39.720] particularly the Himalayan region, we have got the three to four months of rain, the monsoon rain, [30:39.720 --> 30:46.520] that is around 80% of the rainfall of the whole year that happens within these four years or [30:46.520 --> 30:53.960] four months. So a lot of water is coming out there. So at a time, the challenge is how to manage [30:53.960 --> 31:03.080] that water. So if you build a tank or a pond to buffer, to collect, to retain that water [31:03.080 --> 31:10.920] for the time being, then that means that that helps to protect your settlement from flood. [31:11.560 --> 31:18.040] That is one good benefit of pond. But on the other side, that slowly, gradually [31:18.040 --> 31:25.560] resets the groundwater table. That's second benefit. And the third benefit definitely in the [31:25.560 --> 31:31.880] urban settlement, think about those days when we have got, not only the, you know, the tiled roof, [31:31.880 --> 31:38.520] we used to have a test roof with the straw, you know, the wheat straw and other, that test roof, [31:38.520 --> 31:46.920] those are very vulnerable to fire. Where you go to collect water to fight fire. So these ponds [31:46.920 --> 31:52.200] provides that. And more than that, we have got duck farming, we have got some, you know, [31:52.200 --> 31:58.840] big utensils that need to be cleaned. All those auxiliary activities can be done within that pond. [31:58.840 --> 32:05.480] So pond has several other, you know, benefits apart from, you know, the aesthetics. [32:06.680 --> 32:14.200] But one important point, what you asked is how this pond need to be revitalized or rebuilt. [32:14.840 --> 32:22.280] Definitely it has to follow the traditional norms. Now, if you start in part and in many areas, [32:22.280 --> 32:29.240] what you see is they say that, okay, there's no water. So the water will evaporate. So we need to [32:29.880 --> 32:36.840] evaporate as well as that will percolate. So to keep that within the pond. So they started [32:36.840 --> 32:43.400] making those bed and the side walls with concrete, right? And now you, if you go to those ponds, [32:43.400 --> 32:51.160] you'll see no water now. This concrete is not a solution to keep the pond. So we have to go with [32:51.160 --> 32:59.080] the clay that there are special clays, how to retain pond water. The permeability is very, very low. [32:59.800 --> 33:04.760] That kind of clay are there. That is what the traditionally are people used to, [33:05.320 --> 33:10.440] used to build a pond. Those technologies are there and that can be done. [33:10.440 --> 33:17.880] And for example, for your information, I can say that a well-put metropolitan city is going to revive [33:17.880 --> 33:25.000] Saptapathal Pukhu. That is the pond next to Lagankel, Bospark, right? Nearby, it's within Lagankel. [33:25.000 --> 33:31.720] And that is going to be rebuilt in a traditional way. Just like the ponds that has been rebuilt in [33:31.720 --> 33:37.960] several ponds, in Madhya Burt Themi municipality, also in Bhaktapur and also in Kathmandu, like in [33:38.920 --> 33:45.320] Ranipohari, you may know about that struggle, the local people fighting against that concrete [33:45.320 --> 33:52.280] building of the pond. And ultimately, the municipality agreed to go for that traditional one. Now, [33:52.280 --> 33:58.680] you see the Ranipohari is working. Similar technology need to be adopted. Not a concrete, [33:58.680 --> 34:04.760] definitely, no. That's very good to know. Now, moving forward, you also mentioned a bit about [34:04.760 --> 34:10.200] recharge wells earlier. So let's look into some of those ongoing restoration projects, [34:10.840 --> 34:15.720] which are beyond the traditional system that had been undertaken to address valleys, [34:15.720 --> 34:22.920] depleting aquifers and groundwater. A recent project that has gathered a lot of public attention [34:22.920 --> 34:30.520] is the rejuvenation of Bicerapark and Balazu. Now, this project claims to recharge around 30 [34:30.520 --> 34:38.040] million litres of water annually. Can you share more about projects like such and what is its [34:38.040 --> 34:45.560] significance in context of Kathmandu valley? Well, that's an interesting question and also [34:45.560 --> 34:53.400] a challenging one and what needs to be done. Ultimately, forget about the system, forget about [34:54.040 --> 35:01.880] the other systems. Ultimately, people cannot survive without water. That's for sure. [35:02.760 --> 35:11.320] There are several initiatives ongoing in Kathmandu, like Bicera. Also, there are a few initiatives [35:11.320 --> 35:20.600] are undertaking. But the challenge here is in Bicera, what they are trying to do is [35:20.600 --> 35:27.160] recharge the ground. It's more than by water flowing from Bicera. It is more recharging the [35:27.160 --> 35:36.360] groundwater. Bicera is a sad story because that beautiful ET system was destroyed mainly because [35:36.360 --> 35:45.480] upstream of that, there are reservoirs constructed by KUKL, or at a time, Nepal Water Supply Corporation, [35:45.480 --> 35:53.320] which has collected all the water that is flowing into the Bicera. So, Bicera reviving is [35:53.320 --> 35:59.880] rather challenging. But that can be improved a little bit by this recharging. That recharging [35:59.880 --> 36:08.520] will help to Bicera, but more than that, downstream of that area, their wells will be recharged. [36:08.520 --> 36:14.440] So, that would be the benefit of recharging there. On the other hand, if you see Kathmandu valley, [36:14.440 --> 36:21.160] when we see the challenge of water management in Kathmandu valley, we really need to think about [36:21.160 --> 36:28.360] how to recharge the excess water during the monsoon, to store it into into shallow water aquifer, [36:28.360 --> 36:35.640] and that can be utilized during the dry period. And for that, there should be a kind of campaign [36:36.360 --> 36:43.400] all over Kathmandu valley to have recharge wells. This recharge wells is nothing. It's not a big thing. [36:43.400 --> 36:53.320] It's just 20-30 feet if it is needed. 20-30 feet deep wells where the surface water or the [36:53.320 --> 36:59.320] storm water is collected and reaches there so that the ground can absorb that water, [37:00.280 --> 37:06.440] which otherwise would have been just thrown into the storm and that goes to the river system. [37:07.000 --> 37:11.960] So, that is how the water table can be maintained and that can be improved. [37:13.640 --> 37:19.720] So, talking about such utilized projects, roughly how many more similar projects would it require [37:19.720 --> 37:26.040] to restore the valley's aquifer? I will put this question in other way round. You know, [37:27.160 --> 37:34.520] we, people living in Kathmandu, we should be responsible for our water also. So, [37:35.880 --> 37:42.040] if from the sky there is a rainfall, if that water can be resized into the ground, [37:42.760 --> 37:48.760] we should take at least that responsibility. You have to do nothing. Just dig a well and [37:48.760 --> 37:54.840] how dense it may be the settlement, that can be done. Because in your roof there is water, [37:54.840 --> 38:00.920] that water can be collected and you just put it into a recharge well. And that, if that [38:00.920 --> 38:08.200] responsibility is taken by people, then this problem can be solved. And that, I think, [38:09.160 --> 38:16.440] morally also that is our responsibility. So, let us not limit it to this area, this part, [38:16.440 --> 38:22.440] this many people or this municipality, it has to be done all over Kathmandu valley. [38:23.160 --> 38:28.920] And I would go even beyond that. Everywhere in Nepal, this can be possible. There are some areas [38:28.920 --> 38:36.600] where recharge is not possible because of the geological regions. That will be very few areas, [38:36.680 --> 38:43.880] not much. Otherwise, in most of the areas, this can be done. Now, it is not necessary that [38:43.880 --> 38:52.120] whatever water we resized need to be for my use only. That will be the use for nature, [38:52.920 --> 38:58.840] that if we recharge, if the groundwater table is high, then that water slowly gradually flows [38:58.840 --> 39:05.640] into the river, in the dry period, in the wintertime. So, you will have a better flow in river. Isn't [39:05.720 --> 39:13.080] that a part of our use of that water? That's available. If not for us, for the fish, for the [39:13.960 --> 39:20.520] frog and for all this ecosystem, that water is there. So, ecologically, that's also a kind of [39:20.520 --> 39:27.800] service to the ecology, to the nature. So, I see that rainwater harvesting and recharging, [39:27.800 --> 39:34.760] particularly recharging, should be a kind of practice that all the people in Kathmandu valley [39:34.760 --> 39:39.080] should do it. And not only Kathmandu valley, as I said, in Tara, in Bhima Hills, [39:39.800 --> 39:46.200] everywhere this can be done and it should be done. Now, we have almost come to the end of the episode. [39:46.200 --> 39:53.400] So, let's revisit the major question that underscores today's discussion. That is, where can the [39:53.400 --> 39:58.920] traditional water management be placed in valleys more than water management system? As we know, [39:58.920 --> 40:04.680] and we have discussed earlier as well, Kathmandu valley has had episodes of severe water scarcity. [40:05.240 --> 40:11.640] And even though the Melumji drinking water project promises to provide access to water, [40:11.640 --> 40:17.240] to larger population and the demand for water is ever increasing. So, in this context, [40:17.240 --> 40:22.840] would there be any merit if we focus more on projects like recharge wells and revitalization [40:22.840 --> 40:29.400] of traditional water management system over the large expensive drinking water projects like Melumji? [40:29.960 --> 40:31.960] Or is there a middle ground somewhere? [40:33.560 --> 40:39.320] Well, people are still migrating into Kathmandu valley. So, if a single person added means [40:39.960 --> 40:46.120] every day, at least 100 litre additional water demand is added. So, water has to come from somewhere. [40:46.680 --> 40:52.520] So, Melumji is, we are compelled to have that. But before talking about Melumji, [40:52.520 --> 40:57.960] we should be responsible for ourself. And that is why I said about this recharge. [40:57.960 --> 41:05.720] So, let's collect the water, whatever we get. Let's use it. This is the idea. It's not only even [41:05.720 --> 41:12.280] the issue of Nepal, all over the world, in the urban area, the water urbanism is about [41:12.280 --> 41:19.480] recharge. So, the Chinese college is a sponge city. It's the same thing, that is what we are saying. [41:19.480 --> 41:28.040] Spon city, or you see the recharge, Kathmandu, all these are the same thing in different terminology [41:28.040 --> 41:36.040] we are talking about. We need to harvest water, where you get it, and store it in the ground. [41:36.040 --> 41:41.000] And whenever you need it, you can pump it up. I'll just give you an example of how this works, [41:41.960 --> 41:50.520] like, you know, this last year, in maybe April, May, there was a full flow of water in stone [41:50.520 --> 41:57.400] spouts in Lalitpur. And there was a reporter asking me how this is possible. During this dry [41:57.400 --> 42:03.480] season, there is a full flow of water from the spouts. And it's because at the time, the Melumji [42:03.480 --> 42:10.280] water was served, and people did not pump water from their private wells. So, the water table went [42:10.280 --> 42:18.120] up. So, the rivers, sorry, the stone spouts are flowing. So, you see, the consequences. If you do [42:18.120 --> 42:25.960] not have water, then you rely on groundwater, whether it is a hiti or it is your private well. [42:25.960 --> 42:32.600] So, in that context, what I can see is this too has to go hand in hand, so that it's not [42:33.400 --> 42:39.720] substitute to the other. You have talked about some of some interesting terminologies while [42:39.720 --> 42:46.360] explaining this topic. So, there was one sponge city. So, could you explain what it is? [42:46.360 --> 42:53.880] Well, when I say sponge city, you know, the soil is like a sponge. So, if there is rain, [42:54.440 --> 43:02.200] let's store it in as a as a sponge. So, the sponge collects water, and when it collects water, it will [43:02.200 --> 43:09.800] reach out the ground as well as it stores the water. And one additional benefit of having that [43:09.800 --> 43:15.800] pond is, you know, if there is no pond, you will have a big size of drain would be needed. [43:16.360 --> 43:22.200] Now, if you have got a pond, water is stored in a pond so that the drainage, the stormwater drainage [43:22.200 --> 43:29.320] would be of a very small size. You will also save a lot of resources, the fund actually, [43:29.400 --> 43:36.200] of the municipality, otherwise wasting on that big size of drain. So, it is more, when I say [43:36.200 --> 43:43.560] sponge city, it is more, reach out in the ground. And when I say pond, that is also not necessarily [43:43.560 --> 43:51.080] that all 12 months, the water should be standing there. During the rainy season, it will be full. [43:51.080 --> 43:58.520] Gradually, it dries, and maybe in before months, maybe in April, May, it will be totally dry. [43:59.400 --> 44:06.440] It doesn't make a difference to us, even if it is dry. So, that is what a kind of, nowadays, [44:06.440 --> 44:14.120] there's a fancy word for that we call rain garden. You use it as a garden, but during the rainy time, [44:14.120 --> 44:20.760] it will be like a small pond in your backyard. And then during the dry time, it is dry. You can go [44:20.760 --> 44:26.360] into that pond also. People, children can play there. So, they call it rain garden also. [44:27.080 --> 44:32.920] And you mentioned the term water urbanism. So, what does this mean? [44:34.040 --> 44:40.920] Water urbanism is, you know, slowly, gradually, apart from agriculture, [44:41.720 --> 44:50.440] use of water in cities has become increasing, speedily, right? So, how to manage water in [44:50.440 --> 45:00.040] urban area, because the globe is urbanizing, right? We have more than 50% of the whole population [45:00.040 --> 45:07.800] is already in urban centers. So, that managing water in the urban area is water urbanism. [45:08.440 --> 45:15.800] So, when I say this, in early time, we used to talk about storm water, we used to talk about [45:15.800 --> 45:22.920] drinking water. Now, in water urbanism, the third very important component has come, [45:22.920 --> 45:30.680] that is wastewater, because as I said earlier, 85% of the water that human beings consume [45:30.680 --> 45:38.040] turns into wastewater. So, that wastewater has two effect. One is, you know, on one side, [45:38.040 --> 45:43.960] you do not have adequate water so that there's a challenge for us to how to utilize, reuse that [45:43.960 --> 45:52.600] water. And second is, if we leave it as it is, it is going to bring a lot of diseases and all the [45:52.600 --> 46:01.080] health-related challenges will come. So, these three water management in urban area is water urbanism. [46:01.800 --> 46:08.680] So, do we have any instances where these concepts happen or can be brought to life here in Kathmandu? [46:09.480 --> 46:17.080] Well, the Hitti system is already an example that we used to do, but I have visited one country [46:17.080 --> 46:25.720] called Tunisia, right? Tunisia is next to the Sahara Desert. It's a very desertic area. The [46:25.720 --> 46:33.000] rainfall is around 200 to 250 millimeter per year. Whereas, in Nepal, we have got more than [46:33.080 --> 46:40.760] 1500 millimeter. And still, they are managing water. They have got the lakes, right? Collecting [46:40.760 --> 46:46.760] water, they harvest water in the lake, and then they use it for irrigation and drinking and many [46:46.760 --> 46:53.960] other purposes. There are so many other, particularly the areas, arid areas where the water scarcity is [46:53.960 --> 47:02.520] there. They are managing water in a better way. So, we definitely can learn from those [47:02.520 --> 47:11.160] techniques. But before going outside, let's look into ourself where we have got the Hitti system [47:11.160 --> 47:18.920] that shows how water can be managed for the urban population. So, there are many examples [47:18.920 --> 47:26.040] outside also, inside also, but this needs to be done at the public level. There's not one family, [47:26.040 --> 47:32.280] one house, few houses, one settlement doing that. That will not be sufficient. We have to go [47:32.680 --> 47:39.880] it has to be a general culture of people, water management, water managing culture of people. [47:39.880 --> 47:46.360] Without that, the coming challenge of climate change or other urbanization challenges [47:46.360 --> 47:54.120] that cannot be addressed. So, we really need to look into in a holistic way and in cross-section [47:54.120 --> 48:00.120] of the population that need to be done. So, now before we wrap today's episode, would you like to [48:00.120 --> 48:06.520] add anything? Yes, definitely. The one thing that in our discussion that missed is, you know, [48:07.880 --> 48:15.480] this time is the time of the youth. And this water management, most of the time, [48:15.480 --> 48:22.440] youth are forgotten, women are forgotten, and the policy makers at the top level who might be [48:22.440 --> 48:29.160] engineer like me or experience people just sitting there and trying to do solve the problem. [48:30.040 --> 48:36.200] In isolation. I don't think that isolation will help to solve the water problem. So, [48:36.200 --> 48:42.280] there need to be the youth participation, women's participation in the policy making. [48:42.760 --> 48:49.640] And that will definitely help, A, to understand the problem and B, to find the solution. The [48:50.280 --> 48:57.160] mechanical way of finding the solution was there 30 years back, 50 years back. Now, [48:57.160 --> 49:03.480] that should not be the approach the present generation should be taking. So, it should be a [49:03.480 --> 49:10.040] collective and constructive initiative. And I think these kinds of discussions definitely helps to [49:11.160 --> 49:17.720] bring people together to address these kinds of challenges. Yes, I totally agree with you. [49:17.720 --> 49:23.480] And this is a great message to NR today's episode. With this, I would like to thank you for being [49:23.480 --> 49:29.080] here with us today and sharing your valuable insights. Thank you so much for this opportunity. [49:29.960 --> 49:32.120] It was so nice talking to you. Thank you. [49:37.000 --> 49:42.600] Thanks for listening to POTS by PI. I hope you enjoyed Lost Tusk conversation with Padma [49:42.600 --> 49:48.680] Swindar Joshi on navigating solutions to Kathmandu water prices city and beyond. Today's episode [49:48.760 --> 49:54.200] was produced by Nuzh and Rai with support from Kushihang and Rideh Sabkota. The episode was [49:54.200 --> 50:02.600] recorded at PI Studio and was edited by Rideh Sabkota. Our theme music is courtesy of Ruik Sakhe from Zindabai. [50:02.600 --> 50:08.120] If you liked today's episode, please subscribe to our podcast. Also, please do us a favor by [50:08.120 --> 50:14.680] sharing us on social media and leave a review on Spotify, Apple podcast, Google podcast or wherever [50:14.760 --> 50:21.080] you listen to the show. For PI's video-related content, please search for policy entrepreneurs [50:21.080 --> 50:27.480] on YouTube to catch the latest from us on Nepal's policy and politics. Please follow us on Twitter [50:27.480 --> 50:34.760] at tweet2pl. That's tweet followed by the number two NPL. And on Facebook at policy [50:34.760 --> 50:41.960] entrepreneurs link, you can also visit PI.Center to learn more about us. Thanks once again from [50:41.960 --> 50:48.040] me Pragati. We will see you soon in our next episode. Transcription results written to '/home/forge/transcribe3.sonicengage.com/releases/20240205231104' directory

Padma Sundar Joshi on Navigating Solutions to Kathmandu's Water Crisis: Hiti and Beyond

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Padma Sundar Joshi on Navigating Solutions to Kathmandu's Water Crisis: Hiti and Beyond