Padma Sundar Joshi on Navigating Solutions to Kathmandu's Water Crisis: Hiti and Beyond
[00:00.000 --> 00:21.060] A policy discussing series brought to you by Policy Entrepreneurs Inc.
[00:21.060 --> 00:27.240] I am Pragati Karki, in today's episode we have the iconic lifestyle Joshi in conversation
[00:27.240 --> 00:34.980] with Padma Sunda Joshi on, navigating solution to Kathmandu's water crisis, Hiti and beyond.
[00:34.980 --> 00:41.040] Padma Sunda Joshi is the vice president of Madanwandari University of Science and Technology.
[00:41.040 --> 00:45.760] He has more than a decade of experience in urban planning and environment.
[00:45.760 --> 00:50.560] He has worked with the city offices on projects like the Municipal Infrastructure in Human
[00:50.560 --> 00:54.480] Projects and the Kathmandu Valley Mapping Program.
[00:54.480 --> 01:00.600] He has published books and series of articles on urban development, including a recent publication
[01:00.600 --> 01:04.560] titled the Hiti System, Fast, Present and Future.
[01:04.560 --> 01:11.200] Lasta and Padma discuss the intricate relation between water and urbanism in Kathmandu Valley,
[01:11.200 --> 01:16.440] focusing on the traditional water management system known as Hiti Pranali.
[01:16.440 --> 01:21.480] Covering historical backgrounds and the current challenges the valley faces, including water
[01:21.480 --> 01:26.520] shortages and climate change impact, they explore the potential of traditional system
[01:26.520 --> 01:31.280] like Hiti in addressing modern water management issues.
[01:31.280 --> 01:37.280] The conversation extends to ongoing projects and challenges restoring the Hiti and other
[01:37.280 --> 01:42.920] traditional water system, emphasizing the significance as sustainable nature-based solution.
[01:42.920 --> 01:48.280] We hope you enjoy the conversation.
[01:48.280 --> 01:51.160] Namaste, this is Lasta Joshi.
[01:51.160 --> 01:56.840] Namaste, this is Padma Joshi.
[01:56.840 --> 02:00.440] Padma, thank you for joining us today at POTS by PI.
[02:00.440 --> 02:02.920] It's my pleasure.
[02:02.920 --> 02:07.520] Today we'll be talking about the relation of water and urbanism in relation to Kathmandu
[02:07.520 --> 02:08.520] Valley.
[02:08.520 --> 02:14.520] So, water is integrately woven into the fabric of human life and it is not just important
[02:14.520 --> 02:20.080] for survival but also vital for social, cultural and economic development.
[02:20.080 --> 02:25.120] Speaking in this line, there are numerous water architectures that have existed in the
[02:25.120 --> 02:28.280] valley's urban tapestry since its inception.
[02:28.280 --> 02:32.520] Padma, you have been working in urban planning sector of Kathmandu Valley for many, many
[02:32.520 --> 02:37.800] years and have been extensively focused on the revival and documentation of the valley's
[02:37.800 --> 02:42.840] traditional water management system, locally known as Hiti.
[02:42.840 --> 02:48.680] You have also written a book on the subject aptly titled Hiti Pranali, which chronicles
[02:48.680 --> 02:52.440] the history and significance of that mechanism.
[02:52.440 --> 02:56.040] So let's first start with introducing Hiti Pranali itself.
[02:56.040 --> 03:01.640] So what is this Hiti and we have also used the term Pranali, which translates to system
[03:01.640 --> 03:05.640] in English instead of using the term Hiti alone.
[03:05.640 --> 03:11.480] So what significance does the addition of Pranali hold in this context?
[03:11.480 --> 03:17.840] Well, when you see our traditional settlements in Kathmandu Valley, you know, almost all of
[03:17.840 --> 03:23.760] the settlements, the traditional settlements that situated on the tar land, when I say
[03:23.760 --> 03:27.520] tar land, it's an upland, not on the river banks.
[03:27.520 --> 03:34.120] The cities of those days, I'm not talking about 100 or 200 years, it's about 1000 years
[03:34.120 --> 03:35.760] or more, right?
[03:35.760 --> 03:44.640] Those cities grew that expanded on the upland, not on the river bank, unlike the civilizations
[03:44.640 --> 03:51.360] in other parts of the world, and how that can be possible without having adequate water.
[03:51.360 --> 04:00.320] So a Hiti system, what I say the system, Hiti system is actually that was developed in
[04:00.320 --> 04:06.320] the due course of, you know, that growth of the settlements, where they have to invent
[04:06.320 --> 04:11.240] new ideas to bring water in their upland settlements.
[04:11.240 --> 04:17.600] And they use brilliantly the storm water, as well as the groundwater, all three forms
[04:17.600 --> 04:25.760] of water, they utilized to a system and what we call the Hiti system, where they have harvested
[04:25.760 --> 04:32.960] water from all possible sources to linearly flow water in their settlements.
[04:32.960 --> 04:35.400] So that is what the Hiti system is.
[04:35.400 --> 04:43.240] So could you let us know when this finale, this Hiti finale, began and where is it now?
[04:43.240 --> 04:49.880] Well, if we dig into the history, we don't know the exact date when the Hiti was invented.
[04:49.880 --> 04:57.720] But you know, if you go to the historical books, the first in a written form, there is what
[04:57.720 --> 05:03.960] we call the Tiasapo, a written book of a traditional time, a very old time, that was
[05:03.960 --> 05:11.160] found from Swembu, where they have mentioned about a Pranali or a Hiti Pranali.
[05:11.160 --> 05:17.080] So that is the first one in the, as far as I know, historically we found that that is
[05:17.080 --> 05:19.360] around 400 E.T.
[05:19.360 --> 05:24.360] So that means the Hiti must have been developed long before that.
[05:24.360 --> 05:32.040] So if you see historically the Hiti that is being running even today is the manga Hiti,
[05:32.760 --> 05:39.800] next to the pattern that were square, the Hiti was established in 570 E.D.
[05:39.800 --> 05:44.200] So it has got a stone inscription there that mentions that.
[05:44.200 --> 05:52.200] The person who installed that Hiti, who built that Hiti, he also built another one in Hanigang
[05:52.200 --> 05:54.360] in 550 E.D.
[05:54.360 --> 05:56.360] The same person called Baravi.
[05:56.360 --> 05:59.960] Baravi is the grandson of the Great King Manadeb.
[06:00.920 --> 06:05.400] So that shows that the historical, this is a very, very old system.
[06:05.400 --> 06:10.680] And not necessarily the whole components of the Hiti were developed on those days, but
[06:10.680 --> 06:15.560] it was further enhanced in the coming later years.
[06:15.560 --> 06:20.120] So since we are talking about components, what are these components that form the whole system
[06:20.120 --> 06:21.320] of Hiti today?
[06:21.320 --> 06:27.240] You know, the Hiti, it's a combination of a well and a spring.
[06:27.960 --> 06:34.040] In the mountain slopes, most of the places you will find the spring and the water coming out
[06:34.040 --> 06:35.400] from the ground, right?
[06:35.400 --> 06:41.960] Those spring sprouts, spring areas are protected and the water is collected and brought to the
[06:41.960 --> 06:45.320] place where it is needed in the settlement.
[06:45.320 --> 06:51.240] And when they bring that from the spring, the spring could be the spring water coming out from
[06:51.240 --> 06:56.760] the ground over the ground, but also there can be water aquifer in the ground,
[06:56.840 --> 06:59.960] where there is an underground flow of water.
[06:59.960 --> 07:08.520] So people on those days, they found that and they collected those water in the terracotta pipe.
[07:08.520 --> 07:13.960] They brought it up to their settlement, digging on the ground, right?
[07:13.960 --> 07:18.120] So these channels, these gutters, they bring water to the place.
[07:18.120 --> 07:24.440] And so when you say bringing water on that way, that means it is a gravity flow.
[07:24.440 --> 07:30.280] So with the gravity flow that brought to the settlement and where they dig a hole and there,
[07:30.280 --> 07:33.560] they install the Hiti, the stone spout.
[07:33.560 --> 07:35.800] And that is how they bring the water.
[07:35.800 --> 07:43.720] But when I say this, Hiti has the intake and they have got a gutter and then the stone spout.
[07:43.720 --> 07:51.720] More than that, to augment the aquifer, they might have pond upstream of that spring.
[07:51.720 --> 08:00.520] And then to feed the pond, they might have rasculo or the irrigation canal brought from a surface flow.
[08:00.520 --> 08:06.920] So that is how the rasculo, the irrigation canal, then you have got the spring, the intake structure,
[08:06.920 --> 08:12.680] and then you have got a gutter, what we call what we say in Nivari is a Hiti do.
[08:12.680 --> 08:16.200] And with that Hiti do, that is brought to Hiti manga.
[08:16.200 --> 08:19.480] That is the stone spout from where the water comes out.
[08:20.040 --> 08:27.080] And where you get the water, you face water, that is a Hiti hole that is called in Nivari Hiti gah.
[08:27.080 --> 08:29.720] So this is how these are the normal components.
[08:29.720 --> 08:36.040] And more than that, there's one more component since the water is collected from the pit,
[08:36.040 --> 08:38.120] the excess water has to flow.
[08:38.120 --> 08:40.840] So you have to have a drain out system as well.
[08:42.040 --> 08:45.720] So can you also speak up more on the drain out system?
[08:45.720 --> 08:48.440] What happens to the water that is not being used?
[08:48.440 --> 08:55.640] So since it is something like Hiti is something like bringing the spring or
[08:56.200 --> 08:58.280] bringing a waterfall in your settlement.
[08:59.320 --> 09:01.800] Once you use that water, that is okay.
[09:01.800 --> 09:04.840] Once it is not used, but it continuously flows.
[09:04.840 --> 09:08.520] So you have to have a very good drainage system.
[09:08.520 --> 09:15.320] And on those days, what they do is to utilize water, they do not just let the water go
[09:15.320 --> 09:19.240] flow down, but either they collect it in a small pond.
[09:19.240 --> 09:24.760] That water can again be utilized for several other auxiliary functions,
[09:24.760 --> 09:28.520] or they will take that water to irrigate the nearby farm.
[09:28.520 --> 09:34.840] So that is how that water, if you like the wasted water, can be further utilized.
[09:35.880 --> 09:40.680] Yeah, it seems like this sustainable form of water management.
[09:40.760 --> 09:45.880] But why did we end up not continuing the traditional water management system?
[09:45.880 --> 09:48.920] Well, this is definitely a sustainable way of management.
[09:50.040 --> 09:52.360] What do you mean by sustainable?
[09:52.360 --> 09:53.640] It is long lasting.
[09:53.640 --> 09:57.160] You have got little, what you call maintenance, right?
[09:57.160 --> 09:57.960] It continues.
[09:59.000 --> 10:05.080] Now I'm talking about the Hiti in the first one in record.
[10:05.960 --> 10:13.400] That was established in 578 and now in 2023, still that Hiti is running.
[10:13.400 --> 10:16.120] How sustainable this system is.
[10:16.120 --> 10:19.720] This is just an example of that sustainability.
[10:19.720 --> 10:27.240] But unfortunately, in recent past years, actually in recent past, last 60, 70 years,
[10:28.120 --> 10:31.160] we have destroyed several of those Hiti systems.
[10:31.240 --> 10:36.440] You see, many of those Hiti's do not trickle water, right?
[10:36.440 --> 10:37.720] They are dried.
[10:37.720 --> 10:39.880] Some are dried for the whole year.
[10:39.880 --> 10:42.760] Some are dried only during the dry season.
[10:43.480 --> 10:45.800] But there are problems in Hiti system.
[10:46.360 --> 10:53.400] The main problem in Hiti system is, you know, the maintenance of the system is neglected.
[10:54.200 --> 11:00.040] The sources do not know, one unfortunate part of the Hiti system is,
[11:00.040 --> 11:08.040] we do not have a map where exactly the intake is located and from where the gutter is being
[11:08.040 --> 11:09.160] constructed.
[11:09.160 --> 11:16.200] So without that map, it is very difficult to know where these are flowing and how this
[11:16.200 --> 11:17.800] can be maintained.
[11:17.800 --> 11:24.680] So for that purpose, the biggest challenge is to map the Hiti system, the whole from the
[11:24.680 --> 11:27.560] intake to the spout and also the drainage.
[11:28.440 --> 11:34.680] Well, in earlier time, what happens was, people know from grandfather to his son,
[11:34.680 --> 11:39.240] son to his son, that is how they know and they maintain it.
[11:39.240 --> 11:45.080] Now, in due course of time, when we have this pipe to water system and these systems were
[11:45.080 --> 11:50.840] forgotten because pipe to water is much more easier and the government is managing that.
[11:50.840 --> 11:55.400] So the community started, you know, saying that, well, if the government takes a
[11:55.400 --> 11:58.440] tax care of that, why should we bother about this Hiti?
[11:58.440 --> 12:07.320] And that was the way Hiti's were slowly and gradually neglected and you see the situation now.
[12:08.280 --> 12:12.920] Before we dive further into our conversation in understanding these traditional water
[12:13.560 --> 12:20.360] system, I think we should first establish what problems we face regarding water use in the valley.
[12:21.080 --> 12:27.960] So as an expert who has keenly observed and worked in this area, what do you regard are
[12:27.960 --> 12:33.640] the top issues that our valley is experiencing or is set to struggle with in the future in
[12:33.640 --> 12:36.120] terms of water consumption and management?
[12:37.000 --> 12:41.880] Well, when we say water consumption and management, there are three types of water that
[12:42.760 --> 12:44.360] are challenging to us.
[12:44.360 --> 12:48.680] First is we need to drink water, drinking water, household water.
[12:48.680 --> 12:54.120] Now, domestic use or industrial use whatever, the use of water that the cleaner water.
[12:54.680 --> 12:59.480] And second challenge is again, the wastewater that we produce.
[12:59.480 --> 13:07.320] As we all know that 85% of the water that we bring use at home will be
[13:07.320 --> 13:09.240] discharged as wastewater.
[13:09.800 --> 13:16.600] Whether you take bath, you wash your clothes, or you use in your kitchen, or you use it to clean
[13:16.600 --> 13:18.440] up your toilet, whatever.
[13:18.440 --> 13:22.280] So 85% is going to be turned into wastewater.
[13:22.280 --> 13:25.880] So how to manage that wastewater is the second challenge.
[13:26.440 --> 13:29.080] The third challenge is the stormwater again.
[13:29.080 --> 13:34.120] Since Kathmandu valley has grown half as early without any plan.
[13:34.680 --> 13:40.360] So all the water that flows and most of the time people do not like the rainwater and they
[13:40.360 --> 13:46.440] want to have a drain to bring that water to the river as quickly as possible.
[13:47.400 --> 13:54.920] So if that is the case, then the groundwater, the water cannot penetrate or infiltrate into
[13:54.920 --> 13:56.280] the groundwater table.
[13:56.280 --> 13:59.080] So that means there is a scarcity of water.
[13:59.080 --> 14:01.960] The groundwater is depleting on the other side.
[14:01.960 --> 14:09.000] In the river there is a big flow when there is a rain and after some time there is no water.
[14:09.000 --> 14:14.360] So these kind of three challenges I see in water management in Kathmandu valley,
[14:14.440 --> 14:25.320] particularly because of the ever-increasing population and B with unplanned development.
[14:26.840 --> 14:31.960] So with the challenges in water consumption and management that the valley faces and is
[14:31.960 --> 14:37.880] likely to continue facing, where can we situate the traditional water management system?
[14:38.440 --> 14:43.640] Can traditional water management system like Hiti Granale in particular be an asset in
[14:43.640 --> 14:49.800] overcoming these looming issues, especially given the fact that there are many modern
[14:49.800 --> 14:53.480] alternatives that could be considered relatively more efficient.
[14:53.480 --> 15:00.840] Well modern systems are more convenient that I can say but efficiency is something different.
[15:01.640 --> 15:06.520] You know convenience is there because in earlier time people have to go to the stone
[15:06.520 --> 15:12.600] spout and face their water buckets right or water vessels and you feel it, you bring to the
[15:12.600 --> 15:19.720] house, right? There is quite some heavy work they need to do and unfortunately that all has
[15:19.720 --> 15:25.080] to be done by the women. That's another the gender issue you can see in the traditional
[15:25.960 --> 15:34.200] society. That is one part but nowadays the tap is next to your room, next to your bedroom.
[15:34.200 --> 15:40.680] There is a toilet or a bathroom or a kitchen. So definitely that's a convenience is there.
[15:40.680 --> 15:45.480] But that convenience has also brought a lot of wastage of water.
[15:45.480 --> 15:52.200] The water consumption has increased not only due to population but the quantity of water per capita
[15:52.200 --> 15:59.960] use is so high that you need more and more water, right? So that is the challenge.
[15:59.960 --> 16:04.440] But where this water comes from? Water comes from either from the rivers,
[16:05.320 --> 16:10.360] the storm water, the surface water or from the ground. And in Cut from the valley,
[16:11.640 --> 16:18.040] let's forget for a while about Malamsi. In Cut from the other wise what we are drinking is
[16:18.920 --> 16:26.200] almost 30 to 35% of the water that we are drinking is groundwater. So groundwater is not a
[16:26.200 --> 16:31.640] shallow water. On the ground also there are two types of water, right? One shallow water that is
[16:31.640 --> 16:40.280] maybe 20 or 30 feet or 60 feet below. But there is water which is more than 200 meters below,
[16:41.080 --> 16:48.440] 200 meters below. That is what we call a fossil water. That water reaches there after traveling for
[16:48.440 --> 16:55.400] several not decades, even centuries, right? 100, 200, 500 years back. There are some water
[16:55.480 --> 17:02.520] entered into the ground in Sibapuri area and that water has reached to the deep water aquifer
[17:02.520 --> 17:08.680] after 100 or 200 years. There are literatures out there. People are doing so many research in
[17:08.680 --> 17:18.120] that aspect also. Well, that water is brought pumped and that we are using as if it is free.
[17:18.120 --> 17:25.080] So that's a fossil water that we are using. And what are the consequences? Water table is depleting.
[17:25.640 --> 17:31.400] It's not only depleting because of that whole Cut from the floor is sinking. There are studies
[17:31.400 --> 17:38.680] that shows that Cut from the valley is sinking one to two centimeter every year, right? And that is
[17:38.680 --> 17:45.240] going to be a huge ecological or geological challenge for Cut from the valley's sustainability also.
[17:45.800 --> 17:53.240] That is one part. But now on the other side, if you see how Hiti can support that, what Hiti is
[17:53.240 --> 18:01.320] doing is you have got a rainwater that slowly, gradually penetrates and infiltrates into the water
[18:01.320 --> 18:09.560] table and that water we consume. And every year, the same rain during the monsoon, we have plenty
[18:09.560 --> 18:17.400] of rain and that water is replenished, unlike the deep water aquifer. These are replenishable.
[18:17.480 --> 18:24.360] So because of that, we can easily utilize that water. And this is in a way, you know,
[18:24.360 --> 18:31.880] that will be for the people, that is one of the last resort for water. If you do not get any water,
[18:31.880 --> 18:37.480] for example, now the millimetry water is in Kathmandu. Before that, if you see all in the
[18:37.480 --> 18:44.600] spouts or in the wells, all the poor people are surviving with that water. So that's the last
[18:44.680 --> 18:52.200] resort that we have. So it is definitely beneficial for the community to conserve those systems so
[18:52.200 --> 18:57.480] that you have got the water during the water is cast time, you have got at least a reliable
[18:57.480 --> 19:05.720] source there. So in that respect, the Hiti system is so important. But you can see also from the
[19:06.360 --> 19:13.240] historical or here from the heritage point of view, these are the human knowledge, right? The
[19:13.240 --> 19:21.480] wisdom that was used long, long time back to build it. So it's for this generation, it is our
[19:21.480 --> 19:28.520] responsibility also to conserve those heritage, the water heritage. How does a Hiti fair with
[19:28.520 --> 19:35.240] contemporary patterns of water pollution? Are there any ways in which the system needs modification to
[19:35.240 --> 19:41.720] better perform against modern problems? Well again, that is the point I tried to explain
[19:41.720 --> 19:49.400] earlier also. The more you have got water, the more you have got polluted water, right? And on top of
[19:49.400 --> 19:57.320] that, in earlier time, in the last 30, 40, 50 years back, in Kathmandu, there is a kind of wave.
[19:58.200 --> 20:04.040] For the hygiene purpose, for sanitation purpose, people should build their own toilet,
[20:04.840 --> 20:11.400] but they built their own toilet in their own house. But the waste from the toilet,
[20:11.880 --> 20:18.120] the black water, what we call the fishes and the urine, these are all collected into a pit.
[20:18.120 --> 20:25.400] And when you collect that into a pit, that means those pits from there, that leaks and that goes,
[20:25.400 --> 20:33.080] that pollutes the groundwater. The Hiti water that used to be clean for drinking in earlier time.
[20:33.080 --> 20:39.880] Now, if you see in most of the Hiti's, the water has a pollution, it's a polluted water. And if you
[20:39.880 --> 20:48.040] test it, what you will find is, you know, E. coli and all those substances you will find there.
[20:48.040 --> 20:55.320] So that means we have already polluted our groundwater. I will not suggest anyone to drink
[20:55.320 --> 21:01.480] water from Hiti directly. You need some kind of treatment like boiling or some other chemical
[21:01.480 --> 21:08.520] treatment need to be done. Other ways in which Hiti and other indigenous water management system
[21:08.520 --> 21:12.440] provide an age in tackling issues induced by climate change.
[21:13.880 --> 21:21.800] Yes, I think Hiti is again, could be one of the solution. I will not say solution at least.
[21:21.800 --> 21:30.360] That helps to fight against climate change as well. Because, you know, in Hiti, what it does is,
[21:30.360 --> 21:38.040] during the rain, the water is collected. Now, we need to do extra work to reach out our
[21:38.040 --> 21:47.400] groundwater table. Earlier time, it was cut from the town of cut from everywhere. You see the green
[21:47.400 --> 21:53.880] field, meaning those are the agricultural land. In agricultural land, the soil has a time to
[21:53.880 --> 22:01.160] absorb the rain and that will percolate, infiltrate and percolate into the groundwater table.
[22:01.160 --> 22:07.720] Now, on those agricultural land, all the houses has been constructed. Once the houses are constructed,
[22:07.880 --> 22:13.160] there is no chance of percolating. You have got a house, you have got a roof. From the roof,
[22:13.160 --> 22:21.320] you have got a gutter and bring that water to the stormwater, the grains. Not only that,
[22:21.320 --> 22:29.560] even in your courtyard, in your front yard, all it has been plastered to keep your shoes or to keep
[22:29.560 --> 22:36.760] your legs dry. What happens is, there is no possibility of recharging the groundwater.
[22:37.240 --> 22:44.520] So, if we are fighting against this climate change, we definitely need a recharging system.
[22:45.080 --> 22:51.000] So, if we are sealing the surface, then we have to have a recharge wells and there are techniques
[22:51.000 --> 22:55.560] how to recharge the groundwater table. And we need to do that. Without doing that,
[22:55.560 --> 23:06.600] the groundwater table will replenish. The water table will go down, draw down.
[23:07.240 --> 23:14.520] Hi there, this is Somit Renupani from Policy Entrepreneursing. We hope you are enjoying parts by P.E.I.
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[24:00.440 --> 24:02.200] Now let's get back to the episode.
[24:07.320 --> 24:12.840] Let's take a moment to summarize and reflect on our conversation so far. I guess it would not be
[24:12.840 --> 24:18.840] wrong to say that the Hiti system encapsulates the concept of flow energy, nature-based solution
[24:18.840 --> 24:25.160] for sustainable water management in a single system. But the big question today is, is it even
[24:25.160 --> 24:33.480] possible to restore the Hiti system? If yes, what form of efforts would such a restoration require?
[24:34.200 --> 24:40.840] Well, definitely we can restore Hiti's but the challenge is how much effort is needed.
[24:42.120 --> 24:48.520] When I say effort is needed, technically almost all of the Hiti's can be restored
[24:49.240 --> 24:56.680] technically, I don't see much problem. The problem is governance. When I say governance,
[24:56.680 --> 25:02.920] the policy, the government, whether they want to do it or not. Most of the time, the municipal
[25:02.920 --> 25:11.720] mayors and the political representatives, they all talk about these fancy words like,
[25:12.680 --> 25:21.720] what are the Hiti system? We need to restore this and that. But you see, except one or two mayors
[25:21.720 --> 25:30.840] that I know, none of them are supporting this financially, policy-wise. They haven't invested.
[25:31.880 --> 25:35.640] Let's talk about the election one and a half years back.
[25:36.600 --> 25:43.560] How many Hiti's has been restored? Who has done that? No. So these are mostly lip service
[25:43.560 --> 25:49.560] the politicians are doing. That is the unfortunate part of it. But if you would like to do that,
[25:49.560 --> 25:57.080] that can be done. There are some initiatives that is taking place. I can explain you later on that.
[25:57.080 --> 26:04.680] But how this can be done is from two ways, we have to see not only the stone spout,
[26:04.680 --> 26:13.480] the Hiti, the Hittigga. We have to look into the whole system, meaning its source, its conduit,
[26:13.480 --> 26:20.760] and then it's from where the water is coming out and then the drainage. So even when we talk about
[26:20.760 --> 26:28.440] source, that is the what we call groundwater table, groundwater aquifer. These aquifers need to be
[26:29.000 --> 26:36.280] supported by additional water. For that, in earlier time, people have built ponds,
[26:37.400 --> 26:43.960] or in English they call it rather tank. The tanks have been built and these tanks collect
[26:43.960 --> 26:51.400] water, rainwater, not only rainwater as well as the surface water from the streams. The water
[26:51.400 --> 26:58.120] is collected there and the pond slowly, gradually reaches the ground and that is how
[26:58.120 --> 27:04.920] that reaches to the groundwater table. I mean the aquifer and from where we get perineal
[27:05.960 --> 27:12.840] the water in stone spouts. That is where we need to look into all the components, not only one.
[27:12.840 --> 27:17.400] Most of the time the municipalities, what they are doing is they are decorating the
[27:18.120 --> 27:23.960] stone spout. That's good. That's a good intention. But that is not sufficient because if we do not
[27:23.960 --> 27:31.080] have water in a Hittigga, in a Hiti, then it is just a decorative piece, nothing more than that.
[27:31.080 --> 27:37.560] So that part is very, very important for the what we call reviving the Hiti system.
[27:38.920 --> 27:44.520] So you have touched basis on some of the challenges that we may face while revitalizing
[27:44.520 --> 27:50.760] this traditional system, especially in the terms of monetary aspect. But there is one aspect
[27:50.760 --> 27:57.800] which is in terms of knowledge because as we know there has been generational gap in transfer of this
[27:57.800 --> 28:03.880] indigenous craftsmanship that had been overlooked for a very long time. So how can we navigate or
[28:03.880 --> 28:11.320] move around this gap in order to revive this traditional water management system?
[28:11.880 --> 28:18.040] Well, yeah, there is gap, definitely there is gap. But you know, as you said earlier, it is the
[28:18.040 --> 28:24.760] low-energy nature-based system. So the technology is rather simple. It's not that complex.
[28:24.760 --> 28:30.520] The only thing is why it is done, how it is done. Just ask few questions then if you understand
[28:30.520 --> 28:38.120] that you can manage the Hiti system. That's not a big problem. But yes, there is a need to propagate,
[28:38.120 --> 28:45.720] they need to educate people how this system works. A podcast like this could be one of the
[28:45.720 --> 28:53.880] method of doing that. But there are other ways also to educate people how the Hiti system works.
[28:53.880 --> 28:59.240] That can be done. That should not be a big challenge. The big challenge is more, as I said
[28:59.240 --> 29:05.400] earlier, the governance part. There should be the willingness at the political level,
[29:05.400 --> 29:10.040] in a real sense, the willingness, what I mean, is in real sense they would like to
[29:10.040 --> 29:16.360] conserve these Hiti systems. So you have talked about traditional bonds within the traditional
[29:17.160 --> 29:24.760] water management system of Hiti-Pranali or Hiti system. So as the part of revitalization of the
[29:24.760 --> 29:31.960] system, there has been a lot of work I hear in Kathmandu Valley to restore these traditional
[29:31.960 --> 29:38.760] bonds, which you have also been part of. And there has been a lot of conversation around
[29:38.760 --> 29:46.680] the need to restore such bonds in the traditional architecture. So could you enlighten us on what
[29:46.680 --> 29:53.160] is the significance of bonds as an asset to our modern urban settlement and consumption? Is it
[29:53.160 --> 29:59.640] just to enhance the urban aesthetic or does it have a larger service on the environmental level?
[30:00.600 --> 30:09.000] Well, I think the urban aesthetic is a byproduct when you install a pond because you have got water.
[30:09.000 --> 30:15.800] You have got a water body next to your house. I think it's a pride and that's a good part of it.
[30:15.800 --> 30:22.440] But more than that, when people build pond, I think it is not for that aesthetics. It's more for
[30:22.440 --> 30:28.680] the function. So as I said earlier, these ponds, they collect rainwater, you know,
[30:28.840 --> 30:33.480] Kathmandu Valley, not only Kathmandu Valley, the whole region, the South Asian region,
[30:33.480 --> 30:39.720] particularly the Himalayan region, we have got the three to four months of rain, the monsoon rain,
[30:39.720 --> 30:46.520] that is around 80% of the rainfall of the whole year that happens within these four years or
[30:46.520 --> 30:53.960] four months. So a lot of water is coming out there. So at a time, the challenge is how to manage
[30:53.960 --> 31:03.080] that water. So if you build a tank or a pond to buffer, to collect, to retain that water
[31:03.080 --> 31:10.920] for the time being, then that means that that helps to protect your settlement from flood.
[31:11.560 --> 31:18.040] That is one good benefit of pond. But on the other side, that slowly, gradually
[31:18.040 --> 31:25.560] resets the groundwater table. That's second benefit. And the third benefit definitely in the
[31:25.560 --> 31:31.880] urban settlement, think about those days when we have got, not only the, you know, the tiled roof,
[31:31.880 --> 31:38.520] we used to have a test roof with the straw, you know, the wheat straw and other, that test roof,
[31:38.520 --> 31:46.920] those are very vulnerable to fire. Where you go to collect water to fight fire. So these ponds
[31:46.920 --> 31:52.200] provides that. And more than that, we have got duck farming, we have got some, you know,
[31:52.200 --> 31:58.840] big utensils that need to be cleaned. All those auxiliary activities can be done within that pond.
[31:58.840 --> 32:05.480] So pond has several other, you know, benefits apart from, you know, the aesthetics.
[32:06.680 --> 32:14.200] But one important point, what you asked is how this pond need to be revitalized or rebuilt.
[32:14.840 --> 32:22.280] Definitely it has to follow the traditional norms. Now, if you start in part and in many areas,
[32:22.280 --> 32:29.240] what you see is they say that, okay, there's no water. So the water will evaporate. So we need to
[32:29.880 --> 32:36.840] evaporate as well as that will percolate. So to keep that within the pond. So they started
[32:36.840 --> 32:43.400] making those bed and the side walls with concrete, right? And now you, if you go to those ponds,
[32:43.400 --> 32:51.160] you'll see no water now. This concrete is not a solution to keep the pond. So we have to go with
[32:51.160 --> 32:59.080] the clay that there are special clays, how to retain pond water. The permeability is very, very low.
[32:59.800 --> 33:04.760] That kind of clay are there. That is what the traditionally are people used to,
[33:05.320 --> 33:10.440] used to build a pond. Those technologies are there and that can be done.
[33:10.440 --> 33:17.880] And for example, for your information, I can say that a well-put metropolitan city is going to revive
[33:17.880 --> 33:25.000] Saptapathal Pukhu. That is the pond next to Lagankel, Bospark, right? Nearby, it's within Lagankel.
[33:25.000 --> 33:31.720] And that is going to be rebuilt in a traditional way. Just like the ponds that has been rebuilt in
[33:31.720 --> 33:37.960] several ponds, in Madhya Burt Themi municipality, also in Bhaktapur and also in Kathmandu, like in
[33:38.920 --> 33:45.320] Ranipohari, you may know about that struggle, the local people fighting against that concrete
[33:45.320 --> 33:52.280] building of the pond. And ultimately, the municipality agreed to go for that traditional one. Now,
[33:52.280 --> 33:58.680] you see the Ranipohari is working. Similar technology need to be adopted. Not a concrete,
[33:58.680 --> 34:04.760] definitely, no. That's very good to know. Now, moving forward, you also mentioned a bit about
[34:04.760 --> 34:10.200] recharge wells earlier. So let's look into some of those ongoing restoration projects,
[34:10.840 --> 34:15.720] which are beyond the traditional system that had been undertaken to address valleys,
[34:15.720 --> 34:22.920] depleting aquifers and groundwater. A recent project that has gathered a lot of public attention
[34:22.920 --> 34:30.520] is the rejuvenation of Bicerapark and Balazu. Now, this project claims to recharge around 30
[34:30.520 --> 34:38.040] million litres of water annually. Can you share more about projects like such and what is its
[34:38.040 --> 34:45.560] significance in context of Kathmandu valley? Well, that's an interesting question and also
[34:45.560 --> 34:53.400] a challenging one and what needs to be done. Ultimately, forget about the system, forget about
[34:54.040 --> 35:01.880] the other systems. Ultimately, people cannot survive without water. That's for sure.
[35:02.760 --> 35:11.320] There are several initiatives ongoing in Kathmandu, like Bicera. Also, there are a few initiatives
[35:11.320 --> 35:20.600] are undertaking. But the challenge here is in Bicera, what they are trying to do is
[35:20.600 --> 35:27.160] recharge the ground. It's more than by water flowing from Bicera. It is more recharging the
[35:27.160 --> 35:36.360] groundwater. Bicera is a sad story because that beautiful ET system was destroyed mainly because
[35:36.360 --> 35:45.480] upstream of that, there are reservoirs constructed by KUKL, or at a time, Nepal Water Supply Corporation,
[35:45.480 --> 35:53.320] which has collected all the water that is flowing into the Bicera. So, Bicera reviving is
[35:53.320 --> 35:59.880] rather challenging. But that can be improved a little bit by this recharging. That recharging
[35:59.880 --> 36:08.520] will help to Bicera, but more than that, downstream of that area, their wells will be recharged.
[36:08.520 --> 36:14.440] So, that would be the benefit of recharging there. On the other hand, if you see Kathmandu valley,
[36:14.440 --> 36:21.160] when we see the challenge of water management in Kathmandu valley, we really need to think about
[36:21.160 --> 36:28.360] how to recharge the excess water during the monsoon, to store it into into shallow water aquifer,
[36:28.360 --> 36:35.640] and that can be utilized during the dry period. And for that, there should be a kind of campaign
[36:36.360 --> 36:43.400] all over Kathmandu valley to have recharge wells. This recharge wells is nothing. It's not a big thing.
[36:43.400 --> 36:53.320] It's just 20-30 feet if it is needed. 20-30 feet deep wells where the surface water or the
[36:53.320 --> 36:59.320] storm water is collected and reaches there so that the ground can absorb that water,
[37:00.280 --> 37:06.440] which otherwise would have been just thrown into the storm and that goes to the river system.
[37:07.000 --> 37:11.960] So, that is how the water table can be maintained and that can be improved.
[37:13.640 --> 37:19.720] So, talking about such utilized projects, roughly how many more similar projects would it require
[37:19.720 --> 37:26.040] to restore the valley's aquifer? I will put this question in other way round. You know,
[37:27.160 --> 37:34.520] we, people living in Kathmandu, we should be responsible for our water also. So,
[37:35.880 --> 37:42.040] if from the sky there is a rainfall, if that water can be resized into the ground,
[37:42.760 --> 37:48.760] we should take at least that responsibility. You have to do nothing. Just dig a well and
[37:48.760 --> 37:54.840] how dense it may be the settlement, that can be done. Because in your roof there is water,
[37:54.840 --> 38:00.920] that water can be collected and you just put it into a recharge well. And that, if that
[38:00.920 --> 38:08.200] responsibility is taken by people, then this problem can be solved. And that, I think,
[38:09.160 --> 38:16.440] morally also that is our responsibility. So, let us not limit it to this area, this part,
[38:16.440 --> 38:22.440] this many people or this municipality, it has to be done all over Kathmandu valley.
[38:23.160 --> 38:28.920] And I would go even beyond that. Everywhere in Nepal, this can be possible. There are some areas
[38:28.920 --> 38:36.600] where recharge is not possible because of the geological regions. That will be very few areas,
[38:36.680 --> 38:43.880] not much. Otherwise, in most of the areas, this can be done. Now, it is not necessary that
[38:43.880 --> 38:52.120] whatever water we resized need to be for my use only. That will be the use for nature,
[38:52.920 --> 38:58.840] that if we recharge, if the groundwater table is high, then that water slowly gradually flows
[38:58.840 --> 39:05.640] into the river, in the dry period, in the wintertime. So, you will have a better flow in river. Isn't
[39:05.720 --> 39:13.080] that a part of our use of that water? That's available. If not for us, for the fish, for the
[39:13.960 --> 39:20.520] frog and for all this ecosystem, that water is there. So, ecologically, that's also a kind of
[39:20.520 --> 39:27.800] service to the ecology, to the nature. So, I see that rainwater harvesting and recharging,
[39:27.800 --> 39:34.760] particularly recharging, should be a kind of practice that all the people in Kathmandu valley
[39:34.760 --> 39:39.080] should do it. And not only Kathmandu valley, as I said, in Tara, in Bhima Hills,
[39:39.800 --> 39:46.200] everywhere this can be done and it should be done. Now, we have almost come to the end of the episode.
[39:46.200 --> 39:53.400] So, let's revisit the major question that underscores today's discussion. That is, where can the
[39:53.400 --> 39:58.920] traditional water management be placed in valleys more than water management system? As we know,
[39:58.920 --> 40:04.680] and we have discussed earlier as well, Kathmandu valley has had episodes of severe water scarcity.
[40:05.240 --> 40:11.640] And even though the Melumji drinking water project promises to provide access to water,
[40:11.640 --> 40:17.240] to larger population and the demand for water is ever increasing. So, in this context,
[40:17.240 --> 40:22.840] would there be any merit if we focus more on projects like recharge wells and revitalization
[40:22.840 --> 40:29.400] of traditional water management system over the large expensive drinking water projects like Melumji?
[40:29.960 --> 40:31.960] Or is there a middle ground somewhere?
[40:33.560 --> 40:39.320] Well, people are still migrating into Kathmandu valley. So, if a single person added means
[40:39.960 --> 40:46.120] every day, at least 100 litre additional water demand is added. So, water has to come from somewhere.
[40:46.680 --> 40:52.520] So, Melumji is, we are compelled to have that. But before talking about Melumji,
[40:52.520 --> 40:57.960] we should be responsible for ourself. And that is why I said about this recharge.
[40:57.960 --> 41:05.720] So, let's collect the water, whatever we get. Let's use it. This is the idea. It's not only even
[41:05.720 --> 41:12.280] the issue of Nepal, all over the world, in the urban area, the water urbanism is about
[41:12.280 --> 41:19.480] recharge. So, the Chinese college is a sponge city. It's the same thing, that is what we are saying.
[41:19.480 --> 41:28.040] Spon city, or you see the recharge, Kathmandu, all these are the same thing in different terminology
[41:28.040 --> 41:36.040] we are talking about. We need to harvest water, where you get it, and store it in the ground.
[41:36.040 --> 41:41.000] And whenever you need it, you can pump it up. I'll just give you an example of how this works,
[41:41.960 --> 41:50.520] like, you know, this last year, in maybe April, May, there was a full flow of water in stone
[41:50.520 --> 41:57.400] spouts in Lalitpur. And there was a reporter asking me how this is possible. During this dry
[41:57.400 --> 42:03.480] season, there is a full flow of water from the spouts. And it's because at the time, the Melumji
[42:03.480 --> 42:10.280] water was served, and people did not pump water from their private wells. So, the water table went
[42:10.280 --> 42:18.120] up. So, the rivers, sorry, the stone spouts are flowing. So, you see, the consequences. If you do
[42:18.120 --> 42:25.960] not have water, then you rely on groundwater, whether it is a hiti or it is your private well.
[42:25.960 --> 42:32.600] So, in that context, what I can see is this too has to go hand in hand, so that it's not
[42:33.400 --> 42:39.720] substitute to the other. You have talked about some of some interesting terminologies while
[42:39.720 --> 42:46.360] explaining this topic. So, there was one sponge city. So, could you explain what it is?
[42:46.360 --> 42:53.880] Well, when I say sponge city, you know, the soil is like a sponge. So, if there is rain,
[42:54.440 --> 43:02.200] let's store it in as a as a sponge. So, the sponge collects water, and when it collects water, it will
[43:02.200 --> 43:09.800] reach out the ground as well as it stores the water. And one additional benefit of having that
[43:09.800 --> 43:15.800] pond is, you know, if there is no pond, you will have a big size of drain would be needed.
[43:16.360 --> 43:22.200] Now, if you have got a pond, water is stored in a pond so that the drainage, the stormwater drainage
[43:22.200 --> 43:29.320] would be of a very small size. You will also save a lot of resources, the fund actually,
[43:29.400 --> 43:36.200] of the municipality, otherwise wasting on that big size of drain. So, it is more, when I say
[43:36.200 --> 43:43.560] sponge city, it is more, reach out in the ground. And when I say pond, that is also not necessarily
[43:43.560 --> 43:51.080] that all 12 months, the water should be standing there. During the rainy season, it will be full.
[43:51.080 --> 43:58.520] Gradually, it dries, and maybe in before months, maybe in April, May, it will be totally dry.
[43:59.400 --> 44:06.440] It doesn't make a difference to us, even if it is dry. So, that is what a kind of, nowadays,
[44:06.440 --> 44:14.120] there's a fancy word for that we call rain garden. You use it as a garden, but during the rainy time,
[44:14.120 --> 44:20.760] it will be like a small pond in your backyard. And then during the dry time, it is dry. You can go
[44:20.760 --> 44:26.360] into that pond also. People, children can play there. So, they call it rain garden also.
[44:27.080 --> 44:32.920] And you mentioned the term water urbanism. So, what does this mean?
[44:34.040 --> 44:40.920] Water urbanism is, you know, slowly, gradually, apart from agriculture,
[44:41.720 --> 44:50.440] use of water in cities has become increasing, speedily, right? So, how to manage water in
[44:50.440 --> 45:00.040] urban area, because the globe is urbanizing, right? We have more than 50% of the whole population
[45:00.040 --> 45:07.800] is already in urban centers. So, that managing water in the urban area is water urbanism.
[45:08.440 --> 45:15.800] So, when I say this, in early time, we used to talk about storm water, we used to talk about
[45:15.800 --> 45:22.920] drinking water. Now, in water urbanism, the third very important component has come,
[45:22.920 --> 45:30.680] that is wastewater, because as I said earlier, 85% of the water that human beings consume
[45:30.680 --> 45:38.040] turns into wastewater. So, that wastewater has two effect. One is, you know, on one side,
[45:38.040 --> 45:43.960] you do not have adequate water so that there's a challenge for us to how to utilize, reuse that
[45:43.960 --> 45:52.600] water. And second is, if we leave it as it is, it is going to bring a lot of diseases and all the
[45:52.600 --> 46:01.080] health-related challenges will come. So, these three water management in urban area is water urbanism.
[46:01.800 --> 46:08.680] So, do we have any instances where these concepts happen or can be brought to life here in Kathmandu?
[46:09.480 --> 46:17.080] Well, the Hitti system is already an example that we used to do, but I have visited one country
[46:17.080 --> 46:25.720] called Tunisia, right? Tunisia is next to the Sahara Desert. It's a very desertic area. The
[46:25.720 --> 46:33.000] rainfall is around 200 to 250 millimeter per year. Whereas, in Nepal, we have got more than
[46:33.080 --> 46:40.760] 1500 millimeter. And still, they are managing water. They have got the lakes, right? Collecting
[46:40.760 --> 46:46.760] water, they harvest water in the lake, and then they use it for irrigation and drinking and many
[46:46.760 --> 46:53.960] other purposes. There are so many other, particularly the areas, arid areas where the water scarcity is
[46:53.960 --> 47:02.520] there. They are managing water in a better way. So, we definitely can learn from those
[47:02.520 --> 47:11.160] techniques. But before going outside, let's look into ourself where we have got the Hitti system
[47:11.160 --> 47:18.920] that shows how water can be managed for the urban population. So, there are many examples
[47:18.920 --> 47:26.040] outside also, inside also, but this needs to be done at the public level. There's not one family,
[47:26.040 --> 47:32.280] one house, few houses, one settlement doing that. That will not be sufficient. We have to go
[47:32.680 --> 47:39.880] it has to be a general culture of people, water management, water managing culture of people.
[47:39.880 --> 47:46.360] Without that, the coming challenge of climate change or other urbanization challenges
[47:46.360 --> 47:54.120] that cannot be addressed. So, we really need to look into in a holistic way and in cross-section
[47:54.120 --> 48:00.120] of the population that need to be done. So, now before we wrap today's episode, would you like to
[48:00.120 --> 48:06.520] add anything? Yes, definitely. The one thing that in our discussion that missed is, you know,
[48:07.880 --> 48:15.480] this time is the time of the youth. And this water management, most of the time,
[48:15.480 --> 48:22.440] youth are forgotten, women are forgotten, and the policy makers at the top level who might be
[48:22.440 --> 48:29.160] engineer like me or experience people just sitting there and trying to do solve the problem.
[48:30.040 --> 48:36.200] In isolation. I don't think that isolation will help to solve the water problem. So,
[48:36.200 --> 48:42.280] there need to be the youth participation, women's participation in the policy making.
[48:42.760 --> 48:49.640] And that will definitely help, A, to understand the problem and B, to find the solution. The
[48:50.280 --> 48:57.160] mechanical way of finding the solution was there 30 years back, 50 years back. Now,
[48:57.160 --> 49:03.480] that should not be the approach the present generation should be taking. So, it should be a
[49:03.480 --> 49:10.040] collective and constructive initiative. And I think these kinds of discussions definitely helps to
[49:11.160 --> 49:17.720] bring people together to address these kinds of challenges. Yes, I totally agree with you.
[49:17.720 --> 49:23.480] And this is a great message to NR today's episode. With this, I would like to thank you for being
[49:23.480 --> 49:29.080] here with us today and sharing your valuable insights. Thank you so much for this opportunity.
[49:29.960 --> 49:32.120] It was so nice talking to you. Thank you.
[49:37.000 --> 49:42.600] Thanks for listening to POTS by PI. I hope you enjoyed Lost Tusk conversation with Padma
[49:42.600 --> 49:48.680] Swindar Joshi on navigating solutions to Kathmandu water prices city and beyond. Today's episode
[49:48.760 --> 49:54.200] was produced by Nuzh and Rai with support from Kushihang and Rideh Sabkota. The episode was
[49:54.200 --> 50:02.600] recorded at PI Studio and was edited by Rideh Sabkota. Our theme music is courtesy of Ruik Sakhe from Zindabai.
[50:02.600 --> 50:08.120] If you liked today's episode, please subscribe to our podcast. Also, please do us a favor by
[50:08.120 --> 50:14.680] sharing us on social media and leave a review on Spotify, Apple podcast, Google podcast or wherever
[50:14.760 --> 50:21.080] you listen to the show. For PI's video-related content, please search for policy entrepreneurs
[50:21.080 --> 50:27.480] on YouTube to catch the latest from us on Nepal's policy and politics. Please follow us on Twitter
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[50:41.960 --> 50:48.040] me Pragati. We will see you soon in our next episode.
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