Bhupesh Adhikary on The Air We Breathe: Understanding Kathmandu's Air Pollution Problem

Shuvangi: Namaste and welcome to Pods by PEI, a policy discussion series brought to you by Policy Entrepreneurs, Inc. I am Shivangi Poudel. In today's episode, we have PEI colleague Khushi Hang in conversation with Bhupesh Adhikari on the Air We Breathe, understanding Kathmandu's air pollution problem. Bhupesh Adhikari is the Senior Air Quality Specialist at the International Centre for Integrated Mountain Development, ECMOD, Kathmandu. He's also working on understanding the science and mitigation aspects of air pollution in the Hindu Kush Himalaya region, using chemical transport models in situ and satellite-based observations. He previously worked for EVK2CNR committee as their resident scientific coordinator. Bhupesh also worked at Kathmandu University as an assistant professor for several years teaching graduate and undergraduate students.

Khushi and Bhupesh embark on a comprehensive exploration of the city's alarming air pollution problem. They tap into Bhupesh's expertise as an atmospheric scientist to discuss the current sources of pollution, the seasonal intricacies affecting the atmosphere, and the city's unsettling ranking among the world's most polluted places.

Bhupesh also sheds light on health risks, socioeconomic repercussions, and the vulnerability of specific urban populations. The episode further navigates the challenging policies, landscapes, scrutinizing state efforts, significant policy developments, and persistent challenges hindering the effective intervention.

We hope you enjoy this conversation.

Khushi: Namaste, I'm Khushi Hang.

Bhupesh: Namaste, I'm Bhupesh Adhikari.

Khushi: Welcome to the show Bhupesh. How are you doing today?

Bhupesh: Good. Thanks for the invitation.

Khushi: We're so glad to have you here to talk about air pollution, and to frame it as the public problem and a policy challenge. But before we delve into that, let's begin with some myth busting today because I think there is a very common lore that people in Kathmandu have held on to for a very long time where they believe that because the valley is shaped like a bowl it is prone to trapping wind and loose particles within it and air pollution is the destiny for Kathmandu.

This comes up in conversations surrounding air pollution in the valley and many people casually claim that the main reason we struggle with air pollution is because of this. So as a scholar of this subject, how much of this is true?

Bhupesh: Okay, so let me explain this with the example. We're in this room, a very cozy room. If you light a small incense here. And then don't open the doors, the AC isn't running, after a while the room is filled with smoke, right? So even if you have a very tiny source of emissions, incense burning, emitting particles, that situation compared with, suppose you're in a kitchen, But then you have a very effective hood, even if you're burning kilograms of wood.

But if the kitchen hood is sucking air out, you're not going to have as much of smoke remaining in the room. So what that tells you is air pollution is a function, as in science language. It depends on the sources that are emitting these particles or pollutants, as well as meteorology that's regulating.

So when we look at Kathmandu, emissions remain constant. You have your cars, you have emissions from your homes, garbage burning, all these different sources. But because the valley is surrounded, in winter often it is difficult to transport the particles away just like in a room that's shut. So it does add to, among other things, it does add to raising the concentration of pollution in the valley.

So it's partly true. More so in winters.

Khushi: And it seems more of a problem in winter. And why is that? What's the science behind that?

Bhupesh: Okay, so usually where we're located, meteorology wise, during winter, the winds are very calm compared to monsoon, where you get the monsoon winds with rain. So rain washes some of the particles out, Along with rain, you have high-speed winds, which will transport, even if it is within the valley, you still get winds that will transport your particles.

But in winter, we don't get that as much. The weather is very calm, and then, if you're surrounded by big mountains, it's very cold. Pollutions get stuck, and then of course there's a thing called inversion where hot air rises, but then if you have cooler air on top pressing the hot air below, you don't get the movement that you want of particles away from the valley.

Khushi: Thanks for clearing that out and I understand that although Kathmandu's topography does help in the process of trapping the pollution, there is more attention to be given to the emissions itself, right?

Bhupesh: Exactly. And so, I mean, yes, as I mentioned earlier, air pollution concentration. What that means is how much pollution is in the air, right?

That depends both on your emissions as well as the regulating meteorology. So if meteorology is not supporting you or is going to support more higher concentration, then we need to have regulations in place that will lower emissions. Whereas, of course, you want to lower emissions for other issues as well, such as climate and all, but more so when the meteorology is not conducive.

Khushi: This reminds me of the difference in how meteorologists in the image of Kathmandu and how it used to be perceived and how it's perceived right now. Because for a person who grew up in this polluted version of Kathmandu, it feels like the dusty, suffocating reputation is something that's natural for Kathmandu.

But when I talk to people who are older than me and who've lived here before my time, they talked to me about a Kathmandu that was totally different, right? So I think my question to you, To set the scene for today is how did Kathmandu's air become this polluted? Maybe we can draw parallels between the city's rapid development and the intensification of air pollution within it.

Bhupesh: I would say Kathmandu has grown quite fast. I wouldn't necessarily call it gradual development. Just a decade ago, if you look at the population and the green space that was available within the valley versus now, I would say it's growing at a rapid pace. And then also unplanned growth. There are no open spaces.

We're one of the capital that has very few trees, even if we boast about having made great progress on forest cover and area throughout the country with greenery. If you look at Kathmandu, we're way below any developing city or capital for that matter. But again, I mean, I think one of the issues is Yes, we're growing at a rapid pace, but with rapid growth people don't really plan for environment and other issues But now people are feeling the impacts of air pollution waste management and all and so there's Consciousness is building up and people are going to do it.

The wish was for people like us This is how London did it, other cities did it. Couldn't we have leapfrogged and then not get into the mess that we're now in, and then just had it done in such a way that we would have grown, at the same time not have had this, all these environmental problems.

Khushi: Over the years, what would you determine as the main causes of air pollution in Kathmandu?

Maybe in a percentage basis, what do you see are the main factors?

Bhupesh: Sure. So again, environmental problems are very dynamic in nature. So there's no one number that remains constant or is even valid for that matter. You get approximate numbers. So I don't want to go into how much percent transport is contributing, brick kilns, and others.

These things are relative, but the major sources, in technical speak, are sources that are coming from homes, what we call the residential sector, sources that come from industry, although in Kathmandu we don't really have industries that burn fuel of any type. Most of the industries are non-combusting, hence not really contributing to combustible air pollution, sources, the transport sector, obviously, burning all the fossil fuel, diesel, petrol.

Usually in other cities, it's agriculture and then energy production. But in Kathmandu, due to lack of space, we don't really have a lot of agricultural issues. And then, electricity in Nepal is all hydroelectric so we don't really burn a lot of fossil fuel to generate electricity. And we do have a big problem of garbage burning here in Kathmandu as well.

Partly because a lot of people think burning garbage is actually solving a waste management problem. All we're doing is transferring one waste from one sphere or form to another. And then other sources of pollution for Kathmandu is construction dust. Again, when we discuss later, that has a different type of pollution compared to when you're burning fossil fuel.

Another major source of air pollution is forest fires, although it's very seasonal in nature. And then, of course, sometimes we do get transboundary air pollution from outside the valley, across the region and sometimes even from far away sources.

Khushi: I see. I think something that I found really interesting in your answer is how you kept emphasizing the temporal nature of air pollution, which begs the question, how is air pollution measured, given the atmosphere is such a vast thing?

And on top of that, the pollution problem is something that is sporadic and peaks every now and then. How do we go about measuring something like this?

Bhupesh: Thanks. Great question. We divide air pollution monitoring into three broad categories, with instruments at some particular location, right? What we call in situ measurements.

We monitor air pollution these days also from satellite images because satellites are able to detect certain types of pollutants, not all. And then we also estimate air pollution using mathematical models based on calculations with emissions. In technical speak, it's called emissions inventory. You kind of estimate how much air pollution there is.

All of these three different types have their own strengths and weaknesses. And so, the general public wants to know, What is my air pollution today at this location at this time? Or they want to know, What is my air pollution going to be tomorrow at 3 p. m. at this corner? And, again, I mean, that's what they want, but we can give an example.

estimate, but not really precise answers, right? So the science is there to give you a very precise answer if you use measurements, but then that measurement is only measuring that particular area or some representative area, whereas satellites can give you broad regional, city-wide, or even country-wide, or even continent-wide measurements pictures.

 But then it's not giving you air pollution at the street corner, so to speak, right? So there are strengths and weaknesses, but we know enough to build further actions. These tools do allow us to come up to an adequate level of air pollution measurements.

Khushi: I understand that it is based on these measurements that Kathmandu has ranked or consistently ranked in the top 10 polluted cities in the world.

Bhupesh: Okay, I would say rankings in media headlines help to serve a certain purpose in that they make the public really aware about the severity of some particular topic. But I wouldn't read too much into rankings. When they say, oh, Kathmandu is in the top 10, if you ask me, yes, we're polluted. Maybe that particular time and place, we are maybe higher in pollution level, but I wouldn't go and bet my money that we're top 10 or top 9 or top 7 because, again, the devil is in the details that Kathmandu is 9th and not 8th, and what's the error, and how did you do the measurements? So I wouldn't read too much on the rankings at all, but then people still do it, and then it's based on a methodology, which I'm not really saying is wrong. But I don't say that these aren't useful. It helps serve a different purpose and, helps to get attention from people that otherwise wouldn't really read about air pollution and how big of a problem it is.

Khushi: I think that was a very insightful crash course to air pollution and measuring it. Some things that we generally don't hear about in mainstream media. But regardless of the extremities of measurement, air pollution has become a problem in Kathmandu. That's something that I think we can agree upon.

And in recent years, this has become a very significant part of life in Kathmandu. We've had schools closed because of the potential health risks of intense smog. Last year, in 2023, there was a harrowing report from the Air Quality Life Index that shook the valley because it claimed that residents in Kathmandu are on track to lose an average of three years of their life expectancy.

So, given these growing impacts, what does it mean for the dwellers of Kathmandu that air pollution is at an all-time high or has grown increasingly concentrated in the valley?

Bhupesh: Okay, so let's look at a few things, one by one, right? Our studies and a lot of studies have shown, not just Kathmandu, not just Nepal, in South Asia, particulate pollution is on the rising trend in the last two decades. This is a fact. So it's not just Kathmandu, but other cities and regionally as a whole. We are growing. Each year our particulate levels are going higher and higher.

Khushi: And particulate levels being the PM 2.5 or the number of particles in the air?

Bhupesh: Concentration.

Bhupesh: I mean, when we talk about air pollution, there are two types, right? Primarily, there are particles in the air that are harmful to you, and then there are gases in the air that are harmful to you. So right now we're talking about air pollution, particles that are in the air that's harmful for you. And that's been growing in the last two decades. This is all scientists agree on that.

And yes, we are losing precious days of our lives and not just life lost, but also what the health professionals talk about is Disability Adjusted Life Years. We often talk about, oh, how many people died, or like six years of our, three years of our lives being shortened. But then we hardly talk about, oh, I'm coughing every day, or, okay, it doesn't bother me, I go to work, I go to school.

But, I mean, is it okay for you to cough or itch, or have teary eyes every other day? Sure, you're still going to work, still going to school, but your life could be much better without these, right? So I think these are impacts that are not well understood by a lot of people even within the valley.

There have been studies even in Nepal with like impacts on air pollution on, say, cataracts or other severe kinds of disease, right? Globally and regionally, there are studies where people have linked air pollution to diabetes, dementia, and I guess another myth. Health in South Asia is people tend to think air pollution impacts or you have respiratory problems at most when you're exposed to air pollution.

And guess what? Almost two-thirds of the health problems are cardiovascular related, such as pee, heart attack, and all these other issues. And people hardly talk about them. Even when folks talk about air pollution and health impact, they usually talk about diseases related to respiratory illness or upper respiratory tract sort of issues.

But let's say it in a simple way, air pollution impacts all the way from our brains down to your whole body. So, I mean, It impacts a lot of different organs and in a lot of different ways. However, most people don't really talk about air pollution four or five months of the year when it's monsoon and when the pollution levels are down, right?

So it's not a problem then. In print, I guess, in reality, also pollution levels go down during monsoon, so they don't really feel the need to talk. But I feel like, you know, and this comes to a policy level or like action, what needs to be done is that a lot of people in Nepal and in the region Don't think that air pollution is a problem.

Partly, like you said, when you introduced yourself earlier in one of the questions, also, that it's always been like this. This is how I grew up. And then if we go into the rural area, people will say, hey, my grandmother cooked in Smoky kitchen. This is how we lived. They lived to be 90 years old. It's natural.

It's okay. I can live with it, right? So, I mean, there are different perceptions and thinking on air pollution, but as a whole, people don't think it is a problem. Okay. Even if people do think it is a problem, there's a slightly misguided understanding in that cities are polluted and then the peri-urban environment, the moment you see like three trees around you and then you're in a park, people are like, oh, I'm breathing fresh air.

Even within Kathmandu, I go to places like near Godavari or Bhudani Alcantara and the residents there will tell me, oh, it's cleaner here compared to Kathmandu. Yeah, maybe tiny bit. But as a whole, the whole valley is equally polluted as, say, Ratna Park or New York, right? So I would say the first issue is that people need to recognize that air pollution is a problem.

It is a severe problem for Kathmandu at certain seasons and certain times.

Khushi: Naturally, all of this is bound to have an effect on a person's social well-being or their productivity, right? And I remember this from a similarly intriguing conversation before in Pods. This episode was on rising temperatures and fetal health with Aditya Pillai, where he talked about how our economic productivity and social well-being are the silent victims of environmental issues because we don't often make the connection of how the impacts on our health are gradually reflected in the economic or political social scene of the country.

Recently, the World Bank found that the negative welfare effects of air pollution in Nepal amount to more than 6 percent of the national GDP, but the discourse still is very limited to health. So based on your research, which has been more far-reaching than that, can you elaborate on this aspect of impacts of air pollution?

Bhupesh: Sure. As an atmospheric scientist, I wouldn't say enough, but there's atmospheric science, air pollution-related data, and information coming off these data. What's really lacking in the region is data that we can correlate with health, right? One, like when I say high PM 2.5, like say these days, we have high air pollution.

Do we have data from our hospitals, clinics, and medicine shops? on what's the impact immediate as well as long term, right? On the health side of things, how many people are buying certain medication or how many people are visiting doctors or how many people? Okay, maybe people don't go visit doctors just when they're coughing a little bit, but they might go to stores to buy some sort of pain medication or just a reliever, right?

So I feel like there's a lot of room for improving access to medical side of things first. So the information is not readily available. And even if it is, it's very limited information that's available. Second, I think in Nepal, we don't really have, or at least I'm not. really aware of long term epidemiological studies.

We don't follow a certain group of people or a certain sector of people for several years with a particular impact or issue at hand, right? So whatever studies we've done with air pollution and health are very instantaneous or at a very short time span. So that's an area we need to do more. Especially on the health side of things.

And then I think hopefully that gives us more insights on the differentiated impacts of air pollution on different marginalized groups or different social strata of people. But having said that, based on regional evidence, global evidence, there, there has been a lot of studies and also a few limited studies in Nepal that do show how different sectors are differentially impacted.

Khushi: I think that's a really good point that we've reached in this conversation, which brings to mind a 2022 article by one of your colleagues, Amina Mohajan, wrote an article which showed that even within the urban population of Kathmandu, some groups are more vulnerable to air pollution exposure and its impacts than others.

Can you briefly share how this works? What's the mechanism behind this?

Bhupesh: Sure. So again, a few facts, right? So air pollution, even within Kathmandu, like I said, there are places that are more concentrated. There are places that are slightly less. Overall, during polluted times, yes, the whole background there is almost similar, right?

So if air pollution is not homogeneous within the valley. Then we looked at, okay, if there are pockets that are more polluted, how is that impacting people that are involved in certain occupations or certain areas, and how severe is it? So these are things, like I said, haven't been studied in great detail.

So that article that you mentioned is really seminal in that it tried to first look at the different groups of people. Of course, certain sectors have been studied previously, like, say, traffic police. There have been several articles prior to this work. But we tried to look at different sectors, street vendors, traffic police. I think public vehicle drivers was a group in that study. And we picked those people based on they're out in the streets or they're out in certain polluted environments. But again, we are yet to define. How would we come up with who's, like, so we're doing, I'm involved in another study where we're trying to come up with a framework and a methodology to define vulnerability. If we go into any city, how would we define who these vulnerable groups are? But again, Is it always the traffic police or are there other sectors that we're missing out and then how do we define those groups?

Khushi: So basically, we're looking at occupations that are more likely to be exposed to air pollution and eventually their occupation choices or options are determined by their socioeconomic statuses.

Bhupesh: True, but again, I mean I think more studies like these need to happen. We have done studies on, and others have done studies also on, like, say, the brickland workers, just because it's a very dusty environment and then the clans themselves earlier used to pollute quite a bit. Some still do now, so there's a lot of exposure there. So, again, there's occupational issues, air pollution exposure. There's ambient air pollution exposure. There's air pollution exposure in indoor environments. And so and then again, there are different sectors of people that can even if you're exposed, suppose I may be exposed to, say, air pollution in the streets, but then if I'm driving around, In a car with AC, with your windows rolled up, I have coping mechanisms or I have ways to deal with it. Certain people might not, right? And so it's more just, again, we need to look at risk, right? And how people can cope with certain, even if they're vulnerable, what are their coping mechanisms and how do they adapt to it?

Khushi: Moving forward with our conversations, on impacts, I think to gain a more holistic understanding of this aspect, I think we need to make the link between climate change and air pollution.

I don't want to give away too much. Can you just explain how these two aspects are linked? How do they affect one another?

Bhupesh: Sure. I think, at least in South Asia, a lot of people think it's the same. And without knowing the details, and in a way they're correct, because climate, pollution and air pollution are similar in a lot of ways.

But there are distinct differences. Again, and without going into technical details, both have sources coming from combustion. So when you combust anything, ultimately you're going to get global warming gases such as carbon dioxide, but then you also get other pollutants, right? So first, if you stop combustion, you help both climate as well as other pollutants, right?

So whenever you think of actions that help mitigate impacts of climate change, you're also helping to mitigate air pollution. Having said that, there are certain pollutants that also cool the environment, right? And so again, you need to be a bit careful, we say, without understanding the details. But again, there are a lot of similarities between climate change and air pollution, although there are differences.

But in general speaking, if we're doing any action, any mitigation, that will help climate, chances are it is going to help air pollution as well.

Khushi: And what about the other way around? Is the rapidly changing climate in any way making it more difficult to mitigate air pollution? Like, I'm going back to the first time when you said there's an inversion in temperatures.

Does that come into play?

Bhupesh: Sure. See, when weather modulates your air pollution, suppose even if you have very high emissions, look at it during monsoon, right? So it's not like we're stopping cars or we're cooking less or we're not burning garbage then. But then air pollution in monsoon is low. Because the rains wash out heavy particles, the winds blow it away from the valley and dilute it somewhere else.

And so for Kathmandu, even if you're emitting the same amount, you still have lower air pollution. So when climate changes your weather, it is going to have an impact on your air pollution level. Not so much from the emission side of things. And then the other thing that climate change indirectly affects would be, there are projections that as we get warmer, we're going to get more forest fires.

So that means you're going to get more burning. If you have more burning, you're going to have more particulate pollution, right? Another thing with climate change would be if you have periods of extreme weather in that suppose if you have very stagnant air and the air doesn't move anywhere, even during, say, periods of monsoon or monsoon break, things like that, then you're not going to wash away or transport all that pollution.

So you are going to have issues with air pollution with changing climate. For now, we're not really sure how exactly, but we're pretty sure, like, okay, as the climate warms, as the earth warms, we're going to have more forest fires. And so if we're surrounded by forest, especially like our part of the world, if there's more burning, you're going to have more air pollution.

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Khushi: Evidently, air pollution has so many multifaceted impacts, and it can be regarded as a true public problem that needs urgent and effective policy attention. So, moving on to that front, can you illustrate what bodies of the state have a stake in this issue? Who are responsible, at least, for the air pollution in Kathmandu?

Bhupesh: Okay. In a simple way, I would say everybody, partly because air pollution. We call it a complex problem in that it's multiple air pollutants. So when you talk about air pollution, right? So we talk about particle pollution, gas pollution. Within particles, we can talk about what's called total suspended particles.

These are your big, big particles that arise when a truck or a car goes by unpaved roads. Then there's particles that we separate by size, usually PM10, PM2.5, PM1. All that is different types of particles, and they have different sources that they originate from. So if the combustion is very high tech, chances are you're going to get very fine particles.

If the combustion technology is primitive or rather rudimentary, you're going to have a lot of high sized particles. If you're burning diesel, you get certain types of particles versus if you're burning petrol, right? So again, depends on the fuel, depend on the type of the combustion technology, right? So, there's multiple types of air pollution.

There's multiple sources of air pollution. So what does sources of air pollution mean? And, you know, coming back to your question, which sectors? If it's coming from the residential sector, it's probably the local development, the wards, the municipalities that probably need to deal with it. If it's transport, yes, the Ministry of Environment, but also the Ministry of Transportation.

If it's industry, so, majority of environmental problems have a lot of sources, and that involves a lot of sectoral ministries and agencies to work together.

Khushi: Interesting, given it's such a cross cutting issue. And the government has tried to bring about environmental conservation policies, and this has begun distinctly from the mid 90s, where we've had a handful of bills, plans, and programs.

I think it's not the best idea for us to go over all of them. But for you as a keen observer and a scholar, what policy developments have been significant to you and why?

Bhupesh: I would say for any complex problem, right, before you start mitigation, yes, you can always start some action, but then there's no way to verify what your actions did.

So the first thing is you have to understand the problem and then measure quantitatively the extent of the problem, right? So in air pollution, while we started measurements in the early 2000s, it kind of stopped. And then now it's begun again. And so there are measurement monitoring stations all over Nepal now.

That give you an indication when the air pollution is high, and it's now setting baselines in the last few years. What are our concentration levels year in, year out, right? So at least now we know where we stand. And for air pollution, unlike climate change, a lot of solutions already exist. We don't really have to think about, oh, what is the technology or what do I do to improve air pollution from certain sources.

Those solutions exist. All we have to do is realize what are the real barriers for implementing these solutions and try to overcome those, right? And so going back to the key policies and all, I think it's great that we've restarted monitoring across Nepal. Okay. Now we know that, and this has been in the news for a while, that it's not just Kathmandu, there are times when other cities within Nepal are as polluted, if not higher in pollution levels than Kathmandu.

So it helps realize the extent of the problem nationwide. A lot of times people think the issues are only revolving around Kathmandu Valley when the problems are similar elsewhere. So the second, I think, for a complex problem. Yes. Okay. Now we know the problem. Okay. We would have known without measurement, but we know quantitatively what the level of the problem is, right?

And so to me, I think, one great piece of legislation that hasn't really picked up steam, but I would still welcome it, and I still think it's great action forward, in that a few years ago, the cabinet passed a law for reducing air pollution in Kathmandu Valley. The significance of that was that law was passed by the cabinet, which implies support from all sectoral ministries.

And so, as you mentioned in your previous question, after that law passed, yes, the Ministry of Environment and then the Department of Environment continue to do their work. But then in addition to that, the Education Ministry appealed, suggesting closing down of schools. The Ministry of Health put out an advisory saying vulnerable groups please be aware and take protective measures.

It may sound like a very small thing that's setting out advisory and not really doing. Well, but that's really setting the stage for inter-ministerial, inter-departmental action on a particular topic, right? So it wasn't just the Department of Environment saying, oh, there's high pollution. Ministry of Education did something, Ministry of Health did something, right?

And as a whole, informed the public and had a policy response to a problem at that time. We just need to do more of these. Right. And then how do we coordinate better? And then how do we also do it in a way that leads to mitigation actions, actions on the ground together?

Khushi: I think with that answer, you've done a great job of explaining what's lacking, or is inadequate and in what ways certain movements, actions, and policies have filled in those gaps.

Before continuing on that train of thought, there's something else that I want to focus on for a little bit. The Kathmandu Valley Air Quality Management Action Plan. This was a bill approved by the Council of Ministers in 2020, and when this originally passed, there was a lot of hype around it. People were excited, and the general discourse was very positive and excited. But today, even as I was researching that particular action plan, I couldn't find many updates. So could you let us know what you think about it?

Maybe first start by explaining the vision of this project and also explain where we are at right now.

Bhupesh: To me, this has been a great piece of legislation. It's great that for an environmental problem across ministries, and then being passed by the cabinet. To me, that implies all ministries have okayed the bill and are willing to take the actions as per the plan.

Again, we can debate why the implementation and things aren't really moving at a speed that most people would want, and that's a different discourse, I think. But the fact that it's there, and when the law passed, even if it is a small action as in providing advisory from the Ministry of Health, I think there are actions on the ground using that instrument.

We just need to do more. And I think the other issue, and I think we need to bring this out as well, is that air pollution is such a complex problem. First, there is a lack of awareness. Awareness in air pollution. Yes, Kathmandu is polluted, but people think it's only certain pockets or certain times.

So we have the data now to inform that it is polluted in other places, other times, and all that. But then another major problem with environmental issues, especially air pollution, is not what I call. It's not me. It's them attitude, right? So if I think about air pollution, I don't sit back and reflect on what exactly am I doing or how am I contributing to that problem?

We always brush it off by saying, "Oh, just stop the diesel cars, stop the factories, stop somebody else." And so what that leads to is when it's high air pollution, people will be like, "Oh, transport is not doing enough to stop the polluting vehicles." It's like, it's not just me. Look at the brick kilns.

Brick kilns will post, "It's not just me. Look at all the people who are sitting by the street side burning wood and warming themselves. It's not me. Look at all the garbage burning." So it's always them, right? And we have to flip that mindset to say, okay, what can I, as an individual, what can my institution, what can my little community do?

Whatever little that we can do to reduce the pollution that is contributing to the whole. And so I think that really has to happen for, again, policies like this. Different ministries can always blame, "Oh, they need to do it before I do it, or mine is 2 percent or mine is 30 percent." But even if it is very little, what can we do to reduce that little amount?

I think that is the attitude that is needed to act on environmental problems, especially for air pollution.

Khushi: I think so many great points have come up on identifying the gaps in our efforts. But something that I wanted to talk about ever since you mentioned how, at least for Kathmandu, the local atmosphere is very much affected by what happens regionally or in its neighborhood.

The air we breathe is a very classic example of a regional good, and this idea really gets animated in Kathmandu, where the southern and western borders of the country receive a lot of air from India. So there truly is a need for transboundary awareness, but do we see that incorporated in our policies yet?

Bhupesh: Majority of Kathmandu air pollution is from Kathmandu. We did one study again that's contextual and different case that time, that particular season, but then at that time we quantified around 25 percent was regional outside Kathmandu, 75 percent of it was within the valley, right? Again, these numbers are very contextual, so I won't read too much into it, but the takeaway is a lot of the pollution from Kathmandu is from Kathmandu.

Let's solve our problems from within first, then for additional, we look elsewhere to solve, right? So that's, I think that's first. Having said that, in border towns, in regional, what we call the Indo-Gangetic Plains, our Terai states in northern India, all the way from Pakistan to Bangladesh, this fertile land that we have, it's very low-lying land, and the technical term is Indo-Gangetic Plains.

There, I mean, they don't respect borders. Pollution from one place goes freely to another. It is truly a regional and transboundary problem. So for areas like that, we really have to work in a regional mindset. Okay, so like say for example, you might have heard Delhi doing all these different mitigation actions, yet it's not helping, because that's a classic example of how a regional problem is even impacting a megacity.

Classically, in earlier times, people thought pollution from cities impacts rural areas. But here's a classic example where a regional problem has a significant impact within a dense megacity. It's important, again, very seasonally, not all the time. As I said, in winter, we have very calm winds, so we're not getting pollution from India coming to our part of the world.

Whereas in pre-monsoon and post-monsoon season, when the winds are there and then there's significant open burning happening or forest fires happening, yes, we do get pollution from long-range sources.

Khushi: And do our policy efforts reflect that currently?

Bhupesh: Okay, so, great question. Yes. In the early 2000s, Nepal and I think the majority of the South Asian countries signed a declaration called the Malé Declaration.

Okay, it's not so much active these days, but that whole declaration, it was signed in Malé, hence the Malé Declaration, but it talked about transboundary air pollution, and the need for regional cooperation with data sharing, and then identifying actions at a regional level. So yes, it's been on the radar and yes, it's been in policy discourses within Nepal and regionally.

But we don't really have a strong and active framework currently in place. And then again, Malé was a voluntary kind of arrangement. It's not legally binding. And so if we really need to have strong actions, then we probably need a binding legal policy instrument to look at this problem at a regional scale.

Khushi: From a non-state route, I think a very interesting project is the Kathmandu Roadmap Project, and this imagines a transboundary collaboration. Can you share how that framework is designed so that our listeners can get a taste of what a transboundary collaboration could possibly look like?

Bhupesh: Sure. It’s not a project yet. The Kathmandu Roadmap is basically the start of achieving a vision of clean Indo-Gangetic plains and Himalayan foothills. Basically, all the IGP countries where in South Asia people say, "Okay, South Asia is polluted," but it’s the IGP plains that are high in pollution outside of the megacities. And then again, it’s all the way from Pakistan, India, Nepal, Bhutan, and Bangladesh. So these countries, and the fertile cities such as Kathmandu, which is equally polluted. The roadmap envisions that at times it needs to be tackled from a regional perspective, with regional action and coordinated actions at a regional level. In the absence of a legally binding framework, can these countries work together to tackle this problem? At least show our intent to work together. How do we do that? By having periodic science policy dialogue. Air pollution is a very complex issue that has a lot of need for scientific data and assessments. Policymakers need to have that discourse with scientists to really understand what actions are needed based on evidence, not based on hunches and what people prefer to do.

We envision in that roadmap to meet regularly. If the governments allow, we start sharing data and information, including technologies, so that we can work together at a regional level to solve the problem. In simple language, it’s like this: if we think regionally, burning primitive fuel is a problem. Suppose Nepal tries to clean up its brick kilns, India tries to clean up their cement factories, and Pakistan is working on transport, where the science shows you need to tackle the residential sector. You will get some improvement, but not a substantial improvement. If all countries said, "Let’s tackle air pollution coming from the residential sector with these technologies across the region in a very coordinated fashion," you’re going to get more bang for your buck, more immediate actions as a result. People will believe that these actions are working, and hence they'll do more. You get this multiplier effect, and you really get substantial reduction in air pollution. Otherwise, if 10 different projects do 10 different things, yes, it does help, but you’re not able to attribute the net reduction of air pollution, and people think that it’s not working. And that’s a problem.

Khushi: As I listened to the way transboundary coordination is being imagined in this Kathmandu Roadmap, I’m really excited to see how it unfolds. To continue our conversation, I think we’ve talked exhaustively about where we are lacking. But to also sympathize with the state and understand what stands in its way, it’s important for us to understand the impediments that the state faces. Maybe there are some financial or infrastructural shortcomings that are hindering the state from addressing air pollution. Are you aware of any of those?

Bhupesh: Yes, resources are always limited, right? It’s not just Nepal, but for any country first. There’s always the issue of resources, but even within the available resources, how do we coordinate and make the best use of them? How do we plan actions based on evidence and science, and not on what a particular person thinks or favors? Resources are limited, but that’s true everywhere. That shouldn’t be an excuse for inaction. Second, how do you plan actions based on evidence and not hunches? Third, how do you do it in a coordinated and collaborative way to get the most bang for your buck? These are problems not necessarily unique to air pollution but exist in a lot of policy implementation areas.

These are challenges when, if you look at Nepal, we’re still grappling with political issues with federalism and all. It’s not like we’re not doing things. Yes, we are doing certain things, but we need to pick up speed and scale. The problems are real, the problems are now, but how do we pick up the speed and scale that’s required?

Khushi: I think I agree with you on your first point that the shortcomings of resources aren’t excuses enough. This brings a very interesting piece of finding to my head that ever since 2008, the state has been collecting a clean air tax on fossil fuels. According to different sources, the state has accumulated approximately 12.81 billion. So we do have some funds at our disposal that could be used. Now, I’m not going to ask you the common question of why the state has not done anything, because I think, to some extent, we do know why. But as a person who’s been following this issue so closely, what do you think are some of the ways in which this fund could be channeled? What are some of the most urgent areas where this fund could be transferred?

Bhupesh: Great question. I would answer in a way that gives the benefit of the doubt to the government. Yes, we have an instrument to collect funds, but I’m not sure if we have developed an instrument on how to disburse the funds. As I understand public policy and working with governments and partners, you need to have methods and protocols in place where they can distribute this money. In the absence of that, first, there is a lack of an instrument on how to distribute these funds. Second, we need to look at whether it is only specific to air pollution. If you look at taxes or the collection of funds that our government has done, there are other projects where we’re collecting taxes, and I could name a few, but where the money hasn’t gone for the intended purpose.

What are the barriers in that? Yes, we’re quick to collect funds under certain headings, but really slow to allocate those funds to that particular project. What is that barrier? Why don’t people who are looking at public policy, the economics, and those sorts of things work with the government to frame methodologies to spend that? Rather than saying it’s not being spent, if we say, "Okay, you could spend it like this, and here is alternative A, B, and C, and here’s how you would trickle the money down," then the government would be forced to make a decision on whether A is a good option, B, or C. In the absence of any viable mechanism, it’s just something that we raise, but since there are other pressing issues for the government, they just don’t get around to building that framework.

Khushi: Like you said, it would be more constructive to suggest some alternatives to the government. So, from a personal point of view, what would your alternatives for the funds be?

Bhupesh: You have to realize that in air pollution, actions come from multiple sectors. For example, if you want to clean up transport, you have to involve the transportation ministry. How do you get these multi-sectoral actions focusing on a particular topic? This is not a unique problem, and this is where cross-boundary learnings from elsewhere come into play. India has set up a commission that works with different ministries to tackle air pollution. They are spending a lot of money, again, through budgetary allocation, on tackling air pollution. Of course, it helps other sectors and has other impacts, such as climate change, but they have begun to allocate resources specifically to work on air pollution issues. Similarly, China did something similar. As I said, solutions exist, both technological as well as financial or public policy instruments. We can always learn from them and then start the process. Of course, you always need to adapt to our country, our specificity, and all that. But let's begin. Yes, we've already started collecting the tax. Let's begin with some allocation, and then we can always refine it.

Khushi: Okay, aligning our conversation with the larger global discourse on climate change, how have you observed Nepal's commitment to the climate change discourse shaping or adding to the air pollution mitigation efforts in Kathmandu?

Bhupesh: Okay, being a student of climate change as well. Climate change, as being discussed elsewhere around the globe and in Nepal, is probably the single biggest threat to our existence right now. Having said that, there's also a triple planetary crisis engulfing the world, including Nepal, involving climate change, biodiversity loss, and pollution. Yes, climate change is the most powerful threat. But so is air pollution, and so is biodiversity loss. In comparison to the other two, globally as well as in Nepal, I think there is very little discourse on pollution. Partly because air pollution is not so severe in the developed nations, such as in the U.S. or Europe. If it’s not a big problem there, you don't get a lot of buzz from there. For us who are so used to being guided by the global discourse, if you don't really hear a lot of headlines, news, workshops, events, or big gatherings around air pollution, people tend to think that it's not a problem. But for us, it is. It is a big problem. It's impacting our lives now. Sure, we're already seeing impacts of climate change now, but I don't think it's gotten the attention that it deserves. Why do I say that? If you look at the SDGs, there's not a single indicator related to air pollution. Yes, there are sub-indicators within climate action, life on land, or energy, but there's no SDG on air pollution. Even though, as you mentioned, people are losing lives, people are experiencing premature deaths in the millions. That's an opportunity I think air pollution folks, people working on this area, missed out on.

Having said that, I think it has been gaining prominence in the last half a decade or so. Air pollution is being widely discussed now in global environmental workshops and negotiations. It is a significant issue within the context of climate change as well as biodiversity. But the issue is that we don't have a global treaty or global framework on air pollution or pollution. It's not getting the recognition that it deserves. Not just globally, but in our part of the world. We don't have any regional treaty, convention, or program that is legally binding for nations to act on air pollution. We really need to press for that because it's impacting us now. It's impacting us quite a lot. It's impacting our health, economy, and everyday lives. I think we really need to create that demand internally through awareness and programs like this so that we have that instrument in place to work on it.

Khushi: That's a very interesting answer and a very familiar narrative, the fact that the problems of the Global South aren't always represented in the international arena. But that put aside, what was interesting for me was the fact that recently, in quoting you, in a decade or so, there has been some traction on this front. I think it would be interesting to know who has been behind this, who has been driving the force behind bringing air pollution as an important aspect in the global discourse, and how can we strengthen that voice?

Bhupesh: I think the fact is, as we gear towards 2030 and try to meet the Millennium Development Goals and all, when these assessments are coming out about what’s impacting people globally, all of a sudden, air pollution is killing a lot of people or contributing to premature death. It's impacting the climate and biodiversity. While people are working on climate, they realize air pollution is a factor. When working on biodiversity, air pollution is a factor. When talking about chemicals, air pollution is a factor. So it's in there, but not centrally. And a lot of people all of a sudden realize this is missing. Part of the problem is also classical. In classical knowledge, air pollution was always treated as a local problem to be dealt with by local governments or agencies. But with the advent of satellite, internet, and computing infrastructure, we have evidence that yes, it’s a local problem at the source, but it impacts the whole region, and that regional air pollution contributes to climate change, weather, and biodiversity loss. We can track pollution from one part of the globe circulating the entire globe and reaching somewhere else. Now, all of a sudden, it is also part of a global problem. The attitude has changed in that air pollution is no longer a local problem to be dealt with by local government. It is a development problem. If you think about Nepal and look at water issues, how many development partners or NGOs or civil societies work on water-related problems compared to air pollution? Why is that the case? Earlier, air pollution wasn't really well thought of as a developmental challenge. It was a local problem to be dealt with by local governments. Now, that's changing, and that narrative is changing. It is a development problem. It starts local but is often a regional problem and, at times, a global problem.

Khushi: So, in many ways, the problem itself is growing so severe that it's demanding attention.

Bhupesh: Globally, yes.

Khushi: We're almost at the end of our conversation, but before I let you go, as an atmospheric scientist, are there any impressive innovations in policy or in practice in the global or regional arena that you are really excited about and think that Nepali policy could learn or benefit from them?

Bhupesh: The reason air pollution is rising is first awareness, second it’s us versus them, and third, people don’t think you can do anything about it when there's lots of evidence that shows you can develop and reduce air pollution. China is a great example. Cities in China are continuing to develop and grow economically at a very high rate. But yet, in the last decade or so, their pollution levels have either stabilized across the country or gone down. So yes, you can have rapid development and a reduction in air pollution. Again, for me, the narrative that's changing is that air pollution is a complex problem. We need science and evidence to guide our policy. I think that’s building, and government agencies are accepting and internalizing that. The nice thing with air pollution is solutions do exist for any particular source or problem. Solutions exist and there’s an opportunity to learn from elsewhere. Let’s break the barriers that are hindering implementation. Let’s work on speed and scale. It’s not enough to just say we’re working on it. We need massive action now and at scale. This is why a lot of times the discussion is on Kathmandu air pollution. Yes, Kathmandu is severely polluted, but so is the rest of the country, and we need to think beyond the valley and work across the country, which will help Kathmandu as well through transboundary issues.

Khushi: I think that's a really good note to end on. Thank you so much for joining us today at Pods, sharing your knowledge and experience.

Bhupesh: Thanks for inviting me. It has been a pleasure discussing with you. Thanks.

Shuvangi: Thanks for listening to Pods by PEI. I hope you enjoyed Khushi's conversation with Bhupesh on the air we breathe. Understanding Kathmandu's air pollution problem. Today's episode was produced by Khushi Hang with support from Neerjan Rai and Hridesh Thapkota. The episode was recorded at PEI studio and was edited by Hridesh Thapkota.

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