Sonia and Prem

Sonia: Hello, prem. Welcome to Pods by PEI.

Prem: Thank you Sonia, for having me. 

Sonia: So, to begin our conversation, let us start with a very generic overview of the discourse on multilingualism in Nepal. Time and again, we hear these discussions and debates about languages, especially pertaining to Nepali, Kura or other mother tongues or vernacular languages.

Given Nepal has over 130 national languages recognized by the state, but I want to understand why the discourse of multilingualism is so important. In Nepal, we have an official language, Nepali and English is dominantly used in the education sector. So why do we still hear about these discussions over mul linguistic.

Okay, I can I do that again? So why do we still hear about these discussions over multi linguistic approaches in policies and education? 

Prem: Thank you Sonia. I think this is very interesting and critical questions.[00:01:00] First, why the discourse of multilingualism is so important in Nepal as you have stated.

Nepal is a multilingual, multi-ethnic and multi-religious country in terms of number of languages. As you have stated, we have officially 124 languages recognized by census, and there are independent studies that actually identify more than 130 languages and speaking different languages doesn't just mean that you are using different languages for communication. Speaking different languages also means that you have different identities, you have different ways of understanding the society, understanding the world, and also you have different ways of knowing things or learning and making knowledges

so in this sense [00:02:00] Multilingualism has multi-layer connections with the, the life of people. So for me the discourse of multilingualism is very critical and important for two reasons. The first, it represents who we are, like as Nepali citizens, right? So our communities are diverse, and people speak different languages.

So it represents who they are? Second, and most importantly, these, you know, multilingualism or multiculturalism is, is in fact an asset. It's not a problem. If you travel through different parts of the country, you will meet people speaking very different languages with different cultural practices.

So these, these cultures and is. Are actually resources that identifies who who we are, [00:03:00] right? In terms of for example, in terms of our community, in terms of representation of our own self. So we really need to talk how we create spaces for multilingualism in, in national policies, in education for a number of reasons. The first, as I have said before we need multilingual policies because we are multilinguals, right?

We, we really need to recognize and embrace the realities we have. Second if we don't have multilingual policies, it has number of implications sociopolitical implications, for example let me give example of education. If we have just like one language policy in education, Then students coming from Different communities speaking different languages. Are excluded, right? So in other words, they may not be able to communicate [00:04:00] effectively with their teachers, with their students, with their friends. In other words, their sense of belonging in school. Their socialization, the, the degree of socialization is hamper right? 

Sonia: So we know that during the Rana regime, there was a monolingual policy that you touched on your previous answer.

The egg dish policy was driven by a heavy nationalist narrative emphasizing monolingualism to be the fundamental requirement of national solidarity. And we can see the remnants of this narrative to date multilingualism is also sometimes viewed as in direct conflict with Nepal's national integrity.

How do you feel about this narrative? 

Prem: In, in, in social linguistics. This is called the ideology of linguistic nationalism. We define our nationality in [00:05:00] terms of language. Mostly the official language are the so-called national language, which is define design and promoted by the state or the state. This is very problematic. 

So most of fun when we define nationalism in terms of language. In different ways, implicitly or explicitly, we are constructing and promoting or reproducing one language, ideology and sociolinguistic. We call it monolingual ideology. But we need to understand the fact that monolingual ideology is extremely colonial .

So in 18th century, in Europe, there was the rise of nationalist discourse in politics, they promoted. One language policy, right? One good example is, is France. So [00:06:00] you speak only the standard French, not even dialects

so we embrace the same ideologies. I I would say we imported and we borrowed this ideology, particularly during the, the, the regime. And, and we took it as, as granted that, you know, speaking one language that is cos, Nepali or Sura is, is symbolic to our, our national identity. But this narrative is very problematic.

So there are many people, right? As I said before, we speak more than 130 different languages, and there are many Nepali people Nepali citizens who do not speak Nepali. but what I'm, what we are doing with this egg, this egg passa narrative is that, you know, you need to be monolingual, you need to speak Nepali [00:07:00] to be Nepali citizens.

But, you know you don't have to speak Nepali to be a Nepali citizen, right? Of course it's a lingua franca. And as it is taught in, in schools. Of course, you will speak eventually. But if you define nationalism, just in terms of Nepali language abilities and competencies, then it is very exclusionary and it erases the multilingual characteristics of our country.

But the problem is people see multilingualism, as a threat. We know this is, this is very problematic. Narrative. Multilingualism actually is a breeze. It's not a threat, right? Multilingualism breezes, the, the, the, the diverse characteristics of our country. Multilingualism, breezes, the, the communities, multilingualism, breezes, ethnic groups. 

Sonia: Hmm. So, while the cultural implications of multi linguistic approaches [00:08:00] might be important, how is it that such approaches can be applied within the realities of, let's say, our governance? Is there a functional mechanism, guideline, or standard that can help operationalize, multilingualism?

Prem: I think this is, again, very interesting question in terms of functionality of multilingualism, right? Mm-hmm. So the first thing we need to understand is governance is all about helping people get to, you know, public services more efficiently or connecting government with the people. If, if we agree with that definition, More people centric, you know, governance, then language plays very critical role?

So for example, if you are a government employee working in a, in a Tang speaking [00:09:00] community, let's say in, in in Kare for example, or maybe in ua. Similarly, if you are a government employee working in, in Mai speaking municipalities or areas in general, for example, Barra. Perha, right? That area in, in Maddis province. So what happens if you speak Nepali only, that's one scenario, right? Or you speak both Nepali and let's say local language in case of re for example, Tang or in, in, in Maddis for example, you speak ly.

So as an employee, government employee, you'll be more efficient in terms of providing services to, to local people if you know local languages, right? So what I'm basically saying is like, if, if the state is interested or if the state is really committed to provide efficient public services to the citizen, then it [00:10:00] is important for the state to, to help its employee understand or use the local languages where they work. That helps, that helps state connect. You know or communicate with the local people more efficiently.

What I'm basically saying is if we see, if we just like, oh, Nepali's official language and I should be using Nepali only, that's a very problematic narrative. So that's why we need to really talk about functionality or functional multilingualism in our, in our state mechanism. So most often what I hear is, hey, a multilingualism is a problem.

There are so many different languages. Of course, yeah. There are so many languages, but it's not a problem. What is problem is you are not really understanding the importance of multilingualism in terms of providing efficient you know, public [00:11:00] services to the people. 

So for me, if you talk about governance, it's really important to, to talk about how multilingualism is, is really important for the state, to, to communicate with the local people, for the efficient delivery of public services to the people as well as most importantly, connecting you United State with the communities. 

Interesting. 

Sonia: So another burning discourse around language in Nepal is, In the education sector, so I'd like to discuss more a bit on it. Recently, Nepal has made multiple strides in multi lingo policies. This most prominently reflects in its first language, language-based multilingual education program policies.

The recent amendments in the 1971 Education Act state that schools can provide instruction in Nepali, English, or [00:12:00] both, as well as their respective mother tongue. We've just discussed how such policies can be operationalized, but I want to know the state of their implementation. What is the gap between such constitutional provisions and the actual reality of their practice?

Prem: Yeah. Again, this is very interesting question, Sony and Zi. Thank you. Education is actually one of the dominant spaces where language is florists if we have good policies or where languages are erased, if we have bad policies, and I should say we are experiencing the second, the later one, right?

As you have stated, we have, since 1990s with more liberal democratic regime we have very, I should say not really progressive, but at least we have some spaces for mother tongue education. There are [00:13:00] different names. For example, in 1990s we said mother tongue education around 2006, 2007.

We called it mother tongue based multilingual education, which is m l e. Actually multilingualism and education is it's not just a political agenda. Of course nothing is apolitical, but it's, it's of course politically grounded. But it's not, it's not just political thing, right?

If we see, if we look at from more educational perspective, we can't deny the fact that, you know, and there are actually a significant number of studies that show how having opportunities to use mother tongue, mother tongues or multiple languages in the classroom helps actually boost your cognitive as well as [00:14:00] linguistic, sociocultural and communicative skills.

And, and we have recognized that in policies, for example, in Constitution we have mother tongue education, policy, and Constitution state that the citizens can obtain education in their mother tongue. And Constitution also states that the state should embrace multilingual policies.

In different, in different domains in. But what is interesting, as you have stated, and which I would really like to highlight, is the question of implementation, right? We have recognized the state as multilingual state in constitution. We have also recognized mother tongue education as one of the rights, you know, citizen's rights.

We have also recognized that the state sued embrace multilingual policy. Despite all these constitutional [00:15:00] provisions, the practice, the implementation parties is still not really encouraging particularly in the domain of education. There are a number of reasons.

The first I would say you know, lack of ideological clarity. We still have this very deep narrative of egg days, egg basa, and in different ways we carry a monolingual ideologies. And. We see language as you know, from more instrumental perspectives, like job, market, and all these things like instrumental ideology. It's just one aspect of language. There are so many other aspects of languages that I would like to highlight. So, school is a space where you talk about society, you talk about your, your, your lands. You talk about your knowledge, you talk about your culture, you talk about identity, and it's so many things, right? So what I'm basically saying [00:16:00] is we really need to see whether we are ideologically clear about why we are talking about mother tongues or the importance of languages in education, right? 

Another I think ideology that actually affects the implementation of multilingualism in education is we don't really see multilingualism as, as a resource. We just see multilingualism as a problem. We always, I have seen like, you know in schools I have traveled through different path of the country and observe school. You know, I don't blame teachers, but the way we produce teachers, Actually don't help them understand how multilingualism is important.

So, teachers are a key part of education. But the way we are producing, preparing teachers for diversity, multiculturalism, multilingualism [00:17:00] is not enough I would say we don't really talk about all these issues in universities while preparing teachers for teaching in different schools. one factor that comes in the discourse of why multilingual education is not implemented in a school is is lack of teachers. Okay, we don't have teachers to in multiple languages. That's, that's obvious. But why we don't have teachers, because we haven't prepared our universities to offer courses to prepare teachers to teach in, in linguistically diverse communities. 

And most interestingly you know, I think I should highlight it. I think it's, it's so ridiculous for me when we say that we don't have teachers to teach in multiple languages or we don't have teachers for mother tongue education or multilingual education. But we have teachers to teach [00:18:00] all subjects throughout the country from kindergarten to, to higher education, to teach all subjects, all content subjects in English. So you know, you, you are just escaping from the commitment to implement the constitutional provision in practice.

Sonia: Those are some very interesting observations, m g , discussing the implementation of English as the medium of instruction when I read your papers, I found you advocating heavily for what is called the theory of transmission, which suggests a good handle on our first language facilitates the learning of other languages. Could you perhaps touch on the theory and in retrospect also explain what Nepali educational institutions misunderstand about learning a foreign language like English? 

Prem: I think this is very deep, but [00:19:00] of, of course it's a theoretical question, but we really need to understand, as I said before, in the discourse of multilingualism or even in the discourse of language, the, the role of language in education. This is the core. Issue we haven't really discussed.

When you say theory of transmission or theory of linguistic transfer, there are different terms that we use for ex theory of transmission, theory of transfer, linguistic transfer theory of linguistic interdependence. There are different ways how people understand the association between first language and the second language are new languages, right?

So in simplest tom language theory of transmission basically refers to, or describes or argues that if you are competent in your first language. [00:20:00] When I say competent. So it, it is not just speaking right? Reading, writing, and, and even cognitive skills in that language.

So if you're competent in your first language, then you can always transfer those skills or knowledge in learning the second language. In other words, there is no boundaries of knowledge or the skills in learning new languages.

But what happened, the way we taught our teachers in the universities and, and the students in, in schools, is that if you speak your first language, if you use your first language, you will lose second language. In other words, we created misconceptions. We created very negative rule of first language in learning second language. We actually passed on the very strong message, which is very [00:21:00] deeply ideological to our students, to teach us to the communities that the knowledge of your mother tongue, the knowledge of your first language always intervenes, interferes the learning of second language, let's say English or Nepali.

So schools practiced, schools develop plans and policies that way. For example, in English, medium private schools, students are not really allowed to speak Nepali because the schools think that if they speak Nepali or their mother tongue, the students won't become competent in, in the English language. Right. 

So what I'm talking about is how. We are reproducing colonial ideologies in our understanding about learning a foreign language, like, like English. So there [00:22:00] are two things. The first, we have this deep ideology that teaching English from the early grades, right, let's say from the first day of your schooling helps students learning English better, right?

 Another ideology that we have within our communities, communities of teachers, even policy makers that if you stop or if you've banned. Using students' mother tongues, their first language, they will be more competent in, in learning English, for example.

So these two ideologies are actually very powerful in shaping the understanding of nepal's educational institutions. But studies in different fields, for example, in education, in neurolinguistics, in cognitive [00:23:00] sciences, have actually shown that if students are taught In their weak language in, in our case, like English is for most of us it's a second language and for some students it is a third language as well. So the studies have shown that if you are teaching everything, or if you are forcing students to learn everything you know, to participate in the learning process in a language that they are weak in their weak language, then they don't really learn effectively.

I mean, it's not just learning as a cognitive process, but also they don't really socialize effectively with their classmates, with their teachers. They don't really participate meaningfully in interactions, in the learning process.

So what I'm basically saying is, you know, linguistic knowledge and literacy in their mother tongue actually [00:24:00] contributes to, to effective learning of second language.

So I would highlight three different skills that help students transfer effectively while learning a new language , in this case, English. The first skill is more meta linguistic skills. So when I say meta linguistic skills, it's about the skills or knowledge to talk about language. Because our students who come from different linguistic backgrounds they already have some skills in their language. And they can talk about language, any language by using that language, their mother tongue. Because when, when you're talking about something new, then to talk about, to understand about that language, you need to use a language. And they feel more comfortable to talk about that language in their mother tongue. So that is how we learn English and, and people are learning new languages in, in the same way. That's [00:25:00] meta linguistic. 

Another important set of skills is metacognitive skills. So in education, when you say cognitive skills, it basically refers to understanding analytical skills, evaluation skills, right? Skills to think more critically. But we haven't really discussed in, in a deep manner how language, how multiple languages or the student's knowledge of their mother tongue helps develop metacognitive skills. For example, Most students who start learning new language, a second language, have knowledge of their first language, right? They can think in their language, they can analyze in their language, they can compare, they can contrast things in their language. They can associate a particular set of concepts with their communities in their language.

So these are all really important skills that actually breeze the learning of the second language. But what I, what [00:26:00] we are doing unfortunately, is we are actually dismissing, we are disregarding, mis recognizing the importances of those skills. So our school institutions, our, our schools and the universities policy makers haven't really, I should say, understood this fact that there is no boundaries of linguistic skills.

You know, any skills, knowledge, and set of understanding that you have developed in any languages can be transferred to learn any new language. So that is what the theory of transmission is. And it has actually huge implications in shaping our understanding about how should we teach a foreign language a second language like English. but we haven't really discussed in a, in a, in a comprehensive manner in our discussions. 

Sonia: And I need to add that. In [00:27:00] Nepal, only 0.01% of the total population actually speaks English as their first language, which is significantly lower than other local languages.

But we still see this motivation among Nepalese to use English as the primary medium of instructions. So what are the implications of relying on a foreign language as the primary medium in our teaching learning process? 

Prem: This is very interesting statistics, sonia. I think you know, I don't know how the government has calculated the number of speakers in, in their census, but yes it is interesting question to discuss.

I should say, sometimes it sounds really cynical, but I always think and I always ask, you know, why should we focus on English as a medium of in stocks and from the first grade? [00:28:00] This question, I'm asking this question because the students, most students who are learning English as a second language are still not competent, right.

In English to learn everything like sociality, math and science and English. So there is one fundamental misconceptions we have among policy makers teachers and parents, and in public in general, is that, teaching and learning English as a subject, as a language is different from using it as a medium of instructions. It's very problematic. In, in, in very simple. Like first, who are teaching in English, right? So the teachers and, I'm not blaming teachers, right? As teachers are compelled to, [00:29:00] forced to do this. But if we look at the English language proficiency of teachers who are teaching in English medium school, not only public schools, but even in private schools.

So the question is, do they really have adequate competence, English language competence to teach everything, to teach social studies, science, everything in English? And I think we also need to ask another question, do they really need to teach science, social solicit studies and everything in English?

What happens if they teach in Nepali or any local language that is more efficient in terms of teaching and learning. Now, why is it happening then? I think that's your question, right? So there is a, there is a growing tendency and motivation to implement English as a medium of instruction in public schools.

I think there are two forces guiding this tendency. The first one, the privatization [00:30:00] of education, which is very political. So in Nepal, we had two kinds of schools, private school and public schools. Fundamentally, public schools are spaces where Nepali is used as a medium of instruction, which comes from Panai, right? Panai regime use public schools as the space to promote Nepali as the symbol of Nepali nationalism. But at the same time, the Tai did not really do anything to missionaries and schools to to use Nepali as a medium of instruction. Rather, the regime allowed them to use English as a medium of instruction and to actually address the interest of elites, social elites who were really influenced by English, medium of education in for example, in India or any other foreign [00:31:00] country.

So what happened is this actually divided a school system. And more importantly, this constructed and promoted the discourse of very different forms of quality education.

So if you are the graduate of English Medium School, then you will have a better opportunity to obtain quality education. Or you have more life opportunities, for example. So this is, again, very narrow way of defining quality education. It just focuses on the English language competence. And maybe the test scores in SS l C and other exams. But for me, this is actually very narrow. So what is important for us is to have quality education. We really need to produce our students who understand communities [00:32:00] very well, who are able to connect themself, with the communities and understand communities better.

I'm not saying that we don't have to learn English. English is important. English, English is one of the languages, but we have introduced it as one of the compulsory subjects, you know, from first grade. Now, studies have shown that, you know, the teaching of English as a subject has not been effective. We are not able to teach our students English very effectively from the first grade. We don't have adequate teachers, even English language subject specific teachers to teach English.

On top of this, what we are doing is we are creating another problem by forcing teachers to teach everything, all subjects in English. But studies have consistently shown [00:33:00] that if you are teaching in any language that is still a weak language, that the students are still learning that language is second or foreign language, then the learning does not become effective. Actually. It weakens the foundation of education in general, a foundation of literacy, foundation of cognitive skills that you should develop in, in its grade specific and different labels of education.

Sonia: Yeah. Yeah. So adding on we can see this rise of English medium schools in Nepal, as you've pointed out. And we notice a change in perception towards the assessment of the quality of education. Usually in our society, we tend to link learning English or learning through English to quality education.

I mean we did touch on it a bit earlier, but from my personal experience as well, we weren't allowed to speak in Nepali[00:34:00] within our school premises. Let alone in any of our other heritage languages. And finding students for speaking in Nepali, as ridiculous as it may sound is a common scene in Nepali schools. Do you sense an internalized inferiority complex within Nepali about their own mother tongue that has given rise to this quality myth of speaking English, being synonymous with quality education? 

Prem: You know, I have I have written an article in the teacher monthly, I think some like 2, 3, 4 years before. So and, and where I have actually questioned this, this myth of quality education. So what is, what is quality, right? So fundamentally, you know, We, how we define quality education in Nepal, or perhaps grow globally is, is, is based on the test [00:35:00] scores.

So how, you know, what is the grade that you obtain in your test scores, right? And we, we perceived that if someone speaks in English, if someone has mastery over English and the English language, then we, we accept that person as, as someone who has kind of quality education.

But you know, it's not really quality education for me you know, for me and, and different studies have. So their quality education fundamentally is all about creating spaces, very inclusive spaces where where all students coming from, all linguistic and cultural background feel safe, feel belonged, feel free to use, to express, to use their languages, to express their opinions, to become critical, to become you know, a [00:36:00] full citizen in a way.

And also quality education is education that helps students to flourish. To flourish their skills, their, their prior knowledge and, and learn, of course, new sets of knowledge. So that's, that's what quality education fundamentally is. Quality education should help students to, to understand who they are, right, and what competencies, what skills they have, and use them to explore new sets of knowledge and, and apply them in their personal lives.

But what is happening here is we just see the students as, as subjects who must be learning English. I will give just one example. For example, while learning in English, our students are not even, you know, I'm not generalizing, but in [00:37:00] most cases I have seen that our students are losing their competency in Nepali . I'm not just seeing like speaking Nepali, but also using Nepali in, I. In academic writing, like thinking and communicating and, you know, using this language for more cognitive and, and academic academic purposes.

I have talked to students who have completed their school education. And I request them to write a good paragraph In Nepali, they can't, I'm not generalizing, but in, in most cases, they can't. And in most cases they can't even write good paragraph in English.

Even if they finish their English, medium education. they can't really think more critically. They can't really organize their, their thoughts in English. So now what is happening is, that because of English, medium of [00:38:00] instruction, there are new ways of learning. We can see in schools, one fundamental way of learning is then memorization and rote learning, right? Because you don't understand language very well, so you can't think in, in deep, in deeper way. So you just have one option that is to, to memorize , so that you have good grades, good scores in your exams.

I have also seen that in schools, the teachers can't really teach effectively in English. Medium, particularly in the early grades. So what they would do is they would give a list of questions, potential questions to be asked in their exams maybe a week or some days before [00:39:00] exam takes place.

So the students just prepare, set up answers to get ready for their questions, right? And they have to memorize it. If they, they don't have answers, then the teachers give answers. So the students come to attend the exams, sit in the exams, and they just write the answers they have memorized.

So it looks like they're good. They have grades, right? Eventually. But the whole process of learning is extremely narrow, and there is no room for students to think critically to question teachers. And they have become so dependent on the textbooks.

They're so dependent on teachers. And that's, that's, that's how teaching learning is happening in, in English medium so-called English medium schools. So I think we really need to think we really need to understand the fact [00:40:00] that. What we are doing in, in the name of English Medium education, particularly in the early grades, is we are in a way I think we are destroying the Hughes potential that students in the early grade bring for their future literacy and learning.

Sonia: Very interesting. So would it be fair to say that languages have strong socio psychological implications, mostly to do with how we self-identify within society? 

Prem: Yeah, I think that's something which strongly shapes our views about what counts as. What counts as acceptable language in schools and what is good, what is better language or which language is important in education? Yeah. I think I would say language issues are socio psychological issues and social issues in general [00:41:00] because the values, in other words, the capital, the capital associated with any language eventually shapes how we learn languages or how we teach languages, or what languages we teach and, and learn in schools.

Right? For example, Why are we taking English medium of instruction as, as a symbol of quality education? Because it has very, the English language has very, very strong symbolic value. Socio-cultural values, right? Not necessarily educational values, right?

As I have highlighted before for example there is a book on, on what or what it's educated person, succeed, man, what educated person is. Who is an educated [00:42:00] person in Nepal. So socio culturally, we see in Nepal the 16th months, they are educated person is someone who has English language competence.

It comes from the, the, the time when we started public education. So since the beginning of mass education, we kind of constructed and promoted the ideology that education is as an elitist project. And English. English stands as a symbol of that Elis project. So I would, I will give two example. For example, as I said before, in public schools. If you could speak Nepali, if you have very good Nepali language literacy, if you could speak really good in Nepali and read and write in Nepali, you would be an educated person, right?

Because Nepali is a, is a symbol of national identity.[00:43:00] It has instrumental value as well. So you could get job in, in government offices, but at the same time there is another language that is English. And then what happened was after Sai, so the English became the medium of instruction in private schools and then, We had a policies to categorize the schools in different ways, right?

You know, give the value to the schools in terms of test scores their students have obtained in, in national exams, like SS l C then, right? So what happens? So most students who obtain high scores were from the English, so-called English medium private schools. Now, there are different dimensions of, as I said, like there are different factors that shape test scores.

It's not just English medium, right? But what I'm basically saying is because of these like public private schools, [00:44:00] so we have created the symbolic value of languages as well, right? And eventually the, the, the symbolic value of English you know, it is more powerful, right? Because it's, it's a global language.

We saw it as a global language and we also saw it as a language of Elite schools, like private schools. We also saw it as a language of most educated people. We also saw it as a language of smart students who could, you know, have, better schools then the students from public schools.

We need another discourse to, to talk about why there are better scores. Test scores from of the students, from the private schools, but basically the, that kind of policies and practices to, to describe better schools in terms of their students' justice schools in national examinations eventually promoted you know, [00:45:00] the, the symbolic value of English as a, as a, as a language of educated people, as a language of people who have more privileged. And, and the language of elites and language of the people who have better opportunities. So what I'm saying basically is because these are more like public discourses and public ideology and public assumptions because of them, the public schools are public schools. Where Nepali medium was defacto seen as the space where students do not really have better education.

So, you know what I'm basically saying just because of language the public schools are seen as deficit space. And then the students who go to public schools because are, are seen as the students who are from low [00:46:00] socioeconomic background maybe, and who may not have really better opportunities in the future. So look, what I'm basically saying is this is all symbolic, right? And, and these are all socio psychological thing. These are all perceptions. In reality, there are better schools better public schools you know, who teach in Nepali medium .

Sonia: But if we look at it from a more globalized perspective, given that we do live in a time of transnational corporation that go beyond borders and regions that aren't limited to a certain nation, it's easy to believe that speaking English allows you to have more benefits and opportunities in a global world, especially for people from lower income nations like ours.

English could up our chances of participating in the global market. Do you think this justifies Nepal fixation with English? 

Prem: Yeah, seeing from more globalized perspective, yes. I would [00:47:00] say for Nepal, I think English is more like a lingua franca, right?

So it help us communicate with the people all over the world. And it has been a practice in Nepal that English is I think the most dominant foreign language used in our international communications. And as, as we are connected with different, different countries in different ways and through different channels of course English helps us to participate in, in different global discourses as we are doing now, right? Through technology and other means. But what I don't really agree with is that English is the only language, right?

English is the only tool that help us connect with the global market, right? So when we talk about globalized perspective, we really need to understand the localized local realities as well. So I always ask a number of questions. For [00:48:00] example, how many people who are educated in English medium schools have or are participating in the global market. So we don't have evidence, all, you know, we, we are just embracing the narrative that English help us connect with the global market. How many students who are, again, how many students who graduated from Nepali medium schools like me are participating in the global market.

In other words can we say that the students who graduated from Nepali medium schools, public schools, are not participating in the global market? So fundamentally, what I'm basically problematizing is that you don't necessarily have to be learning everything in English, you know, to be competent in English . Now, my question again [00:49:00] is seeing from more like global perspective, it's, it's okay, but are we really preparing our students to participate in the global market through English, medium education? So when you ask these questions, you know, what we see is, we see very different scenario.

I don't think that, you know, it's only English language that is contributing to helping our students to participate in the global market. That's one thing that's, English is one thing, but the knowledge, the skills that our students have, that's important and I would like to highlight that it's not English. That is, it's not. Only English that helps your employability, that helps our students employability and our students capital to participate in the global competitive market. It's multilingualism that prepares our students to be competitive.

So I think we need to understand this [00:50:00] fact. So the studies have consistently shown that if you are monolingual, like English only speaker, or if you have competence in English only, and if you're competing with someone who speaks English and other languages, their mother tongues or other foreign languages, they're multilingual, then your employability is always less than someone who speaks multiple languages. We need to really recognize this English is just one language in the global market. There are multiple languages. So if you want to be competitive, it's not just English that matters. What matters is to what extent you are multilingual and you know languages other than English as well.

What I'm basically saying, we do have those languages already, but what we are doing is in the name of English Medium education, we are actually. Losing those competencies, that actually is more important in global competitive market as well. Very nice.[00:51:00] 

Sonia: Okay, so to wrap our conversation up how is it that we might get out of this conundrum that is multilingualism?

Because we already have a generation of children raised out of their mother tongues. They, and many of their parents as well have no relation to their mother tongues. How can we, in a more real sense, in a more applied sense, move forward and incorporate languages that have been systematically removed from our lives?

Prem: Wow. This is this is multimillion dollar question. 

I think the first thing that we should start with is I think having more evidence-based comprehensive discussion like this. As I said there are different misconceptions about the relationship between language, life, education, economy, identity.

So the first thing is we really need to communicate the message [00:52:00] through different channels, particularly through education. That multilingualism is an asset. Multilingualism is a resource for learning any languages, not only language, but also developing strong metacognitive. Meta linguistic cultural, all kinds of knowledge and resources that we need for quality education.

And we need to really communicate the message that multilingualism prepares a full citizen. Not a citizen who had to lose his mother tongues, cultures, identities while learning a foreign language. Or the second language right, is it's all, all inclusive. Most importantly, I think we really need to prepare our institutions.

For example, schools, teachers. Fundamentally, because I see my research is more focused on [00:53:00] school spaces because those schools are the places where. Students form different assumptions through different ways, through their teachers through their textbooks through their policies and, and interactions with their friends.

They form their different values and assumptions, ideologists about language. So I think, I think we really need to work with the schools and teachers. To help them understand that multilingualism should be integral part of their education.

It's not optional. It's not, it's not something that you, you can do if you like or if you can't do, if you don't like. Right. You'd really need to do it because by doing this we understand we represent our communities. So what I I I was trying to say basically one thing is if we change schools, if schools are [00:54:00] proactive, then they can actually create a synergy in different ways of multilingualism. If students feel that they're safe, To use their home languages in schools. Not only say, but also if the students see that, see the meaning of using their languages in, in, in learning process. In schools, they would change the family, the language situation in the family.

They would change language situation in the community. And, and after all, we create very vibrant, diverse, multilingual communities. I was talking to some noir young students and their family who are actually learning NIR in one of the schools in Kadu. And this is a primary school, but still they teach NIR to their students.

So what I have found is their parents said that, oh wow, my [00:55:00] kids started speaking noir. In the family, right? They don't really feel deficit, they don't feel like inferior for speaking noir. And so the, the whole linguistic situation the linguistic atmosphere of the family had changed now.

So now they feel really proud of their language and then their parents are really happy about that. And they are learning Nepali, of course, right? As, as a, as a compulsory subject and they're learning English. So what is happening is that they're becoming multilingual.

They're not really losing they're not losing their their heritage language that is, that is noir. So what I'm saying is we really need to develop policies, plans, PAGs that. Adds, right, the value to the learning processes by incorporating multiple languages. But unfortunately what is happening, [00:56:00] Sonia, is like, you know we have very subtractive, very subtractive policies, right?

So where that basically promotes the loss of your mother tongues as you, as you grow learning second language. But we need to think about how to make it additive, right? It just add, like, learning English is an, is an ity process. So you don't lose your mother tongue, you don't lose the Nepali language, you just add English.

So, which is not really happening, but there are all this is very different discourse. So how to prepare teachers, how to prepare the schools. But fundamentally what I'm saying is, We really need to prepare teachers and any schools to understand that language. Multilingualism, linguistic diversity is really important resource for learning any new languages and after all, to create a very vibrant, linguistic multilingual communities.

Sonia: Okay. That was a great [00:57:00] conversation. M g thank you very much. It was a pleasure having you here. BI team wishes all the best for your future ventures and I hope our listeners enjoyed our conversation With that, it is a wrap. 

Prem: Thank you Sonia for having me. I think our listeners could get some points from this discussion of, it's a very complicated issues.

Yes, thank you. It's, it's very dense.

Sonia: Yeah. 

Prem: Thanks.