Project Sambaad -Between Rhetoric and Reality: An Evidence-Based Conversation on the State of Nepal's Labor Migration

[00:00:00] Welcome to Project Sambad.

[00:00:06] Project Sambad is a collaborative platform that promotes in-depth conversations that critically

[00:00:10] examine Nepali society and its policy making space.

[00:00:14] Through Project Sambad, PEI and other like-minded organizations seek to explore broad impactful

[00:00:20] questions that contribute to a wider dialogue on the politics and development of Nepal

[00:00:26] and the South Asia region.

[00:00:28] In just two days, we had six immersive and interactive panels on relevant contemporary

[00:00:33] topics from development, migration to business.

[00:00:36] Sambad comes to life when it reaches a wider audience and that's why we're sharing live

[00:00:41] recordings of the conversations.

[00:00:44] In today's release, we have guest speakers Sleish Shrestha and Amina Mohardzan with host

[00:00:49] Sadik Shahbhadrae in a Sambad on Between Rhetoric and Reality, an evidence-based

[00:00:54] conversation on the state of Nepal's labor migration.

[00:00:58] We hope you enjoy the conversation.

[00:01:03] I'm Sadik Shahbhadrae and I currently work as a research coordinator at the Center for

[00:01:09] the Study of Labor and Mobility at Social Science Bahaya in Kathmandu.

[00:01:14] And I have been working in the field of research, like I have been engaged in research

[00:01:20] on migration since the last five years.

[00:01:23] And today's panel discussion, as you may already know from the title as well, is on

[00:01:29] Between Rhetoric and Reality, an evidence-based conversation on the state of Nepal's labor

[00:01:35] migration.

[00:01:38] In the first session as well, we had migration come up as a very important part of the

[00:01:43] development narratives of Nepal.

[00:01:45] And I feel in this panel discussion, we want to delve more into details on different

[00:01:51] dimensions of migration phenomena in Nepal.

[00:01:55] And I hope we can cover some of the important topics within the 45 minutes that we have

[00:02:02] in the beginning for a discussion with our panelists.

[00:02:07] So to talk about the panel, we will be focusing more on the migration, or particularly

[00:02:14] the international labor migration from Nepal.

[00:02:19] We already know migration is very complex and multifaceted.

[00:02:24] In Nepal, we have internal migration.

[00:02:26] We have people migrating across the border to India and China for work and study.

[00:02:31] We have those who are after the 1980s, an increasing number are also migrating to other countries

[00:02:38] in the Middle East, in US, in the Europe.

[00:02:43] But today our conversation will be more focused on international labor migration to

[00:02:48] these Middle Eastern countries, Malaysia as well as to the European countries.

[00:02:55] Before going into our conversation, I would like to take a moment and request our

[00:03:01] panelists, Dr. Amina Morrison and Dr. Silesh Resta, to take a small moment and

[00:03:06] introduce themselves.

[00:03:07] Amina, can you please start?

[00:03:10] Thank you.

[00:03:11] Thank you, Sir.

[00:03:12] Very happy to be here.

[00:03:16] I'm so happy that this is a dialogue and I'm so glad to be here to have a dialogue with

[00:03:20] all of you.

[00:03:21] I'm Amina, I'm Amina Morrison and I work as a senior livelihood and migration specialist

[00:03:27] at ECMODE, which stands for International Center for Integrated Mountain Development.

[00:03:31] But my recent say it has never remained just a work for me.

[00:03:35] I'm deeply passionate about human mobility migration.

[00:03:40] You feel I'm a by training, I'm an agricultural economist, agricultural sector

[00:03:44] my karma rathay and by accident I ended up in migration.

[00:03:49] Kinamanda conflict time, I was trying to understand how conflict is impacting

[00:03:53] gender roles.

[00:03:55] And when we, I was doing this workshops, everybody was talking about migration

[00:04:00] and I had absolutely no idea about it.

[00:04:02] Then I thought what is this?

[00:04:04] Try to look into it.

[00:04:05] There is no literature.

[00:04:06] Nothing blank.

[00:04:08] And that's when I thought if I do my PSD this is a topic that I'm going to do.

[00:04:12] And ever since from agriculture I've shifted more to migration and as I said

[00:04:16] it's not a job.

[00:04:17] It's, I'm very passionate about anything related to human mobility migration.

[00:04:22] That's from my side.

[00:04:25] Hi all, my name is Slesha Nanshresta.

[00:04:28] I was previously based in Singapore as assistant professor at the Department

[00:04:33] of Economics in National University of Singapore.

[00:04:36] But now I'm temporarily based in Nepal at least for the next six months.

[00:04:40] My background is economics, in particular labor economics.

[00:04:43] So I study inefficiencies in labor markets and part of that is understanding

[00:04:49] global labor markets in the context of migration and mobility of labor

[00:04:52] across national boundaries.

[00:04:57] Yeah, I'll keep it short so we can start the conversation.

[00:04:59] Thank you so much Amina.

[00:05:03] Talking about migration, recently or you can say the report that was published in

[00:05:09] 2020 to the World Migrants Report it says like there are 281 million international

[00:05:14] migrants and among them almost an estimated 60% are labor migrants.

[00:05:19] And if you look at the data from Nepal as well, like last fiscal year more than

[00:05:23] 700,000 Nepali took labor from it from the government to go abroad for work.

[00:05:29] And the Nepal census which was recently published last year,

[00:05:33] it shows there were 22 lakhs Nepali abroad at the time of their survey.

[00:05:38] So this also shows a labor migration has become a very important part

[00:05:42] of in the context of Nepal.

[00:05:46] So Sleshi I have this question like how does Nepal experience regarding

[00:05:51] labor migration conforms or fits into this larger global migration trend?

[00:05:57] Yeah, I mean the thing is first of all like international migration is not a new

[00:06:02] or recent phenomena.

[00:06:04] I mean you can look at starting from this mass migration from Europe to the

[00:06:08] new world including extreme form of forced migration in the form of

[00:06:12] slavery right in the 1400s and 1500s as well as the debate surrounding

[00:06:18] such migration was also equally heated and contentious right?

[00:06:22] For example you can think about the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1982 where

[00:06:27] basically the US ban all Chinese migration into the US.

[00:06:32] And more importantly the economic sort of push and pull factors that drives

[00:06:37] this human mobility across space hasn't changed also, right?

[00:06:43] So and like if you can take an example of slavery itself,

[00:06:50] like it was purely driven by this need for immense demand of quote unquote

[00:06:55] low-skilled cheap labor to work in sugarcane and cotton plantation.

[00:07:00] The Chinese migration was driven to work during the expansion of railways

[00:07:05] to the west, right?

[00:07:06] So the developed countries have always had the need to import

[00:07:13] cheap labor to meet their labor needs.

[00:07:19] But they had previously also faced economic and political costs of

[00:07:24] assimilating these migrants as well as their families into their society, right?

[00:07:29] And often leading to conflicts with migrants, sorry natives, right?

[00:07:33] Between migrants and natives.

[00:07:35] So in that context they had imposed these barriers for

[00:07:41] labor mobility in particular, right?

[00:07:43] Although if you look at empirical evidence in terms of how much does

[00:07:49] immigration into a country affects native workers wages is kind of mixed.

[00:07:53] And it mostly depends on context.

[00:07:57] Although the rationale for why it would negatively affect native

[00:08:01] is based on sound economic fundamentals, right?

[00:08:05] So that has led to this developed country imposing strict barriers,

[00:08:09] often at huge economic cost to their own GDP as well as global GDP, right?

[00:08:15] So there are a lot of back of the envelope estimates of if you remove

[00:08:20] instantly all the barriers that exist today without changing anything else in

[00:08:25] the world, these estimates of how much improvement you'd see in global GDP

[00:08:31] is immense from 50% to as much as 150%, right?

[00:08:36] And those numbers translate into contextualize those numbers.

[00:08:41] It's basically getting rid of all world poverty that exists in the world today, right?

[00:08:46] So the question is what has changed, right?

[00:08:50] What is different today than in the past where migration was mostly

[00:08:56] permanent with assimilation is the nature of migration, right?

[00:09:00] It's mostly temporary migration that we see today where workers and

[00:09:05] individuals from countries like Nepal move to developed countries, right?

[00:09:08] And part of the reason for that is the shift in the developed countries,

[00:09:14] governments migration policy itself where they are relying more and

[00:09:18] more on temporary migration programs and

[00:09:22] often through government to government agreements, right?

[00:09:25] And the restrictions that these temporary programs impose

[00:09:30] allows these governments to basically reduce their cost of assimilating migrants

[00:09:35] because they cannot have long term assimilation, families don't move with them.

[00:09:39] But also limit the competition migrants have against the natives, right?

[00:09:44] So in that context it's easier for

[00:09:46] developed country governments to sell these programs to their own natives.

[00:09:50] And hence you see this shift in these policies translate into

[00:09:56] global data in terms of how people are moving across the region, right?

[00:10:01] Especially out of developing countries.

[00:10:03] And Nepal is just one of many countries that sort of participates in this phenomena,

[00:10:09] right?

[00:10:09] And it is not just that these programs benefit developed countries.

[00:10:14] But these programs are often today looked as sort of a triple win.

[00:10:19] It's where basically the migrants, the sending country,

[00:10:23] as well as the receiving country all benefit, right?

[00:10:26] And there are some programs that have been rigorously evaluated,

[00:10:32] including smaller temporary migration programs in New Zealand and few others.

[00:10:37] And the results show that the returns on investment on these programs

[00:10:42] far outpaces any investment that has been made in development, right?

[00:10:47] Through aid or through national government.

[00:10:49] So what that translate to is you see increasing number of

[00:10:54] developing country governments facilitating migration as a very

[00:11:00] strategic sort of developing strategy, right?

[00:11:03] And Nepal is not sort of unique or pioneer in this aspect, right?

[00:11:10] So if you look at the government of Philippines establish its overseas

[00:11:15] migration program like in 1974.

[00:11:19] So does Bangladesh has a what's called Bureau of Manpower Employment Training

[00:11:25] since 1976, right?

[00:11:28] Specifically designed to help workers migrate as a development plan.

[00:11:36] And looking forward, the fact that there are huge wage gaps that still exist

[00:11:45] between different countries in particular between North and South.

[00:11:49] As well as this increasing demand for low skill service sector workers, right?

[00:11:55] Partly due to this diverging trend between youth and old age population

[00:12:00] between developing and developed countries.

[00:12:02] Also partly it's simply a catch up of labor moving where previously

[00:12:09] the globalization that existed post-war World War II era was globalization

[00:12:14] except for migration of labor, right?

[00:12:17] So what you see today is basically labor catching up to how capital have been

[00:12:23] moving for the last 30, 40 years, right?

[00:12:26] So viewed from that angle at least economists and in my field people do

[00:12:31] believe that if anything the demand for low skill labor in particular, right?

[00:12:39] Through these temporary work program channels,

[00:12:43] if anything is going to rise even further.

[00:12:46] Thank you, Slesi.

[00:12:47] Like you mentioned, this migration is not a one time phenomenon.

[00:12:52] It's going to continue as long as there is a global demand for workers or low

[00:12:57] skill workers and Nepal and these demands will be fulfilled by a country like Nepal.

[00:13:02] But if you look at the political rhetoric that surrounds migration in Nepal,

[00:13:08] you see them describe migration as a failure of state.

[00:13:13] And migration, if you look it appears prominently in all the political manifestos

[00:13:19] where they are talking about the inability of the government to generate

[00:13:23] employment within the country.

[00:13:26] So I want to come back to Aminazi about this.

[00:13:29] Like what do you think is influencing this current political rhetoric

[00:13:34] of migration as a failure of state?

[00:13:37] And what senses have you seen?

[00:13:39] Like has there been a sense in this political rhetoric if you look back

[00:13:43] or decade or 15 years back?

[00:13:46] Thank you.

[00:13:48] I think when we are thinking of development, the definition of development itself,

[00:13:53] in a way it has remained static and this is where Slesi's point comes.

[00:13:59] If you look at the economic model, to change why,

[00:14:02] like the country specific one to the global license of a bird because

[00:14:06] one may be the game with the market case and because has to be

[00:14:09] after the go ma after the summer to geographic boundary is to set up

[00:14:14] some of the market and it's with all of us.

[00:14:17] So it's not only political, you know,

[00:14:21] level policy level, political level.

[00:14:25] Even general public map.

[00:14:27] I mean, to talk about the business,

[00:14:30] a sufficient economic and employment opportunities on a part

[00:14:34] of the novel car and the body but the table is only your failure

[00:14:39] of the state to create money.

[00:14:41] Contradiction.

[00:14:42] It is a development like the geographic boundary definition.

[00:14:47] But already in 80s you have foreign employment at the

[00:14:51] but it's a simultaneously so we have been living in this

[00:14:54] dual contradiction.

[00:14:55] It's very interesting that about the decade back about

[00:14:59] the department for foreign employment,

[00:15:02] just command it.

[00:15:03] They have a joint secretary.

[00:15:06] Secretary.

[00:15:07] I'm like, you know, it's a very invest where I was.

[00:15:12] That was the take.

[00:15:14] And I said, do you really believe that?

[00:15:17] And my money.

[00:15:18] I'm not a person who is mandated to look into foreign employment.

[00:15:24] Actually doesn't think that this is an issue.

[00:15:27] But evidence.

[00:15:27] This is where I think evidence based conversation becomes important.

[00:15:31] Evidence.

[00:15:32] In migration, Nepal, century is old.

[00:15:35] I don't know where the mindset started.

[00:15:38] I think it's a lot to do with the mindset, the thought process.

[00:15:48] Globalization, goods and services globalize.

[00:15:53] But when it comes to labor resources,

[00:15:56] globalize migration is a debated topic.

[00:16:01] And it is everywhere in Nepal.

[00:16:05] So I think these are some of the factors.

[00:16:08] I have often met people.

[00:16:13] They wish if people don't go there.

[00:16:22] And they have to work with low skill.

[00:16:26] The whole concept is work.

[00:16:30] And it's not even a respect for work.

[00:16:33] So I think that has acted another burden in our mind

[00:16:37] to not consider migration as part of development pathway.

[00:16:41] I would say we are living in this contradiction.

[00:16:46] We have seen the COVID-19 pandemic.

[00:16:50] But we can't recognize it.

[00:16:54] And in this, I believe is where we are losing out.

[00:16:57] Huge is labor, reality.

[00:17:01] What is the reality?

[00:17:02] 64% of the households are dependent on

[00:17:06] receiving remittances.

[00:17:08] We have seen the reality.

[00:17:11] The way development is done,

[00:17:13] we have to use productive use of remittance.

[00:17:16] And we have to do everything with migrants.

[00:17:19] In Malaysia, it's a contractual.

[00:17:23] Migration cycle normally ends by the time.

[00:17:26] It's been 40-45 years.

[00:17:29] And then it's different.

[00:17:32] How can you be safe?

[00:17:35] How do you make best use of the remittance?

[00:17:38] Because of this contradictory thought process.

[00:17:41] I call it mental block.

[00:17:44] Mental block is a way to accept that

[00:17:47] migration can be a path to development.

[00:17:50] We still think migration as a failure.

[00:17:56] But there are gradual shifts.

[00:17:59] That I see now over the last one and a half decades.

[00:18:02] Even political parties have started

[00:18:06] a safe and orderly migration.

[00:18:09] And it has to do with global dialogue.

[00:18:13] It was such a struggle to get migration included in SDGs.

[00:18:19] The goal is to target the irony.

[00:18:22] It was a huge struggle.

[00:18:24] But that paved the pathway for safe, orderly migration.

[00:18:28] And I think that also helped the government

[00:18:30] and policy makers to start thinking,

[00:18:33] which I believe is a positive pathway.

[00:18:37] And there are other things.

[00:18:39] As a media group, migration and failure

[00:18:42] are very common.

[00:18:44] What I think is that really path to development.

[00:18:48] We have been asked about that.

[00:18:51] But my thoughts, and this is where I love this dialogue,

[00:18:55] is that we have to start recognizing this reality.

[00:18:59] The reality is that how can we do it?

[00:19:02] How can we do it as a catalyst for development?

[00:19:05] That dialogue has been made.

[00:19:07] I think it will be more constructive.

[00:19:09] And also to reduce this compulsion to migrate.

[00:19:13] That's what I think.

[00:19:15] Man's life, economy and other reasons

[00:19:17] are to remove compulsion from our job.

[00:19:20] Thank you.

[00:19:22] Like Amin, as he said,

[00:19:24] if you look at the policies as well,

[00:19:27] we have the Foreign Employment Act

[00:19:30] and also different migration policies as well.

[00:19:33] In recent time, how do you think

[00:19:37] the policies have shifted in terms of migration in Nepal?

[00:19:42] How is the government looking at migration?

[00:19:46] Is this for me?

[00:19:47] Yes.

[00:19:48] Okay.

[00:19:50] I mean, just to caveat,

[00:19:52] I'm not the expert in Nepal migration.

[00:19:54] So many of you here might know more than I do.

[00:19:57] So I welcome your input as well.

[00:20:00] But what I can say is,

[00:20:02] like I was mentioning,

[00:20:04] Nepal is not unique in this environment.

[00:20:07] It's basically trying to follow the template

[00:20:09] that was set by other countries that have come before them.

[00:20:12] Right?

[00:20:13] So that makes some of the challenges easier as well.

[00:20:17] But on the other hand,

[00:20:19] there are certain unique aspects of Nepal

[00:20:21] that needs to be incorporated in the policy as well.

[00:20:24] Besides the political side,

[00:20:27] what I do see, you know,

[00:20:29] Ministry of Labor including the foreign,

[00:20:33] I guess now it's foreign...

[00:20:35] Department of Foreign Employment Board.

[00:20:37] No, no, foreign employment board.

[00:20:38] It used to be foreign employment promotion board.

[00:20:41] Hence the politics in that.

[00:20:43] They are basically have...

[00:20:45] So they have three areas that they tend to focus on

[00:20:48] as with any other countries,

[00:20:50] which is policies targeted pre-migration,

[00:20:52] policies during migration and policies

[00:20:55] for returning migrants as well.

[00:20:57] Right?

[00:20:58] Because most of the migrant workers

[00:21:01] are coming back to Nepal because of the nature

[00:21:03] of the contract under which they migrate.

[00:21:06] So in terms of pre-migration,

[00:21:09] obviously you hear a lot about, you know,

[00:21:11] regularization of manpower agencies,

[00:21:15] price quotas on how much they can charge

[00:21:19] and all that as well.

[00:21:20] But also part of that policy package

[00:21:23] includes orientation for migrant workers

[00:21:26] in terms of informing them about their rights

[00:21:29] in their countries as well as some of the work

[00:21:32] you and your organization have been also doing

[00:21:35] at Mushrik and all in western Nepal

[00:21:37] where you try to sort of connect aspirant migrants

[00:21:43] to people who are already abroad

[00:21:46] because most of the migration happens through networks

[00:21:49] and research everywhere over the world

[00:21:52] shows that networks do matter in terms of the quality

[00:21:55] of migration and how much you earn.

[00:21:57] So...

[00:21:58] And these are the aspects that the government of Nepal

[00:22:01] is actively engaging, right?

[00:22:03] Including signing law of government-to-government agreements

[00:22:06] and that's like a horse race as well

[00:22:09] because each country wants to sign agreements

[00:22:11] with different countries.

[00:22:12] So Nepal is basically competing with countries

[00:22:15] like Bangladesh, Philippines, Indonesia, Sri Lanka,

[00:22:19] India, Pakistan to get these contracts, right?

[00:22:23] So think about where I was based in Singapore,

[00:22:26] has a huge migrant population

[00:22:28] including law of low-skilled migrants

[00:22:30] but not a single one is Nepali

[00:22:32] partly because Nepal could not get access

[00:22:34] to that labour market whereas India, Bangladesh

[00:22:37] managed to get government-to-government agreement with Singapore.

[00:22:41] So that's where I think law of government effort goes

[00:22:44] and again this is not different from any other government.

[00:22:48] In terms of during migration there's a lot of policies

[00:22:52] in terms of selling health insurance, making permitting

[00:22:56] and renewal of permit easier, facilitating issues

[00:23:01] when they occur in the labour market abroad,

[00:23:05] thinking about formalizing remittance

[00:23:07] and making sure remittance is easily transferable

[00:23:10] to households back home, right?

[00:23:12] Which also has government incentive

[00:23:14] because they can tax easily as well.

[00:23:17] In terms of return needs however, all,

[00:23:20] not just Nepal but I think everywhere else

[00:23:22] governments have struggled to think about

[00:23:25] what are the policies that sort of allows migrants

[00:23:27] to seamlessly reintegrate

[00:23:29] because think about it like typical migrant

[00:23:32] often only goes abroad for two to four years.

[00:23:35] So coming back they have a lot of productive labour market

[00:23:40] sort of lifetime they're going to spend in Nepal, right?

[00:23:43] So we stress a lot about brain drain

[00:23:47] and loss of labour abroad but we are only losing

[00:23:49] for a few years.

[00:23:50] In fact they actually come back

[00:23:53] and have the potential to spend

[00:23:55] most of their productive labour life in Nepal.

[00:23:58] And then the question is how well can

[00:24:01] the labour market in Nepal observe them back, right?

[00:24:04] And what's the role of the government to facilitate that?

[00:24:07] Especially with something like NSDB

[00:24:10] is doing where they are providing subsidized

[00:24:14] accreditation programs, certificates basically

[00:24:17] which is saying look I went abroad

[00:24:19] I know how to run a digger

[00:24:21] I don't have the capacity to go through training

[00:24:24] and get the permit but you can go to NSDB board

[00:24:27] and they sort of accredit your skills saying

[00:24:30] you are a migrant you sort of have this experience

[00:24:33] so the domestic employers can validate that

[00:24:36] because it has a government seal

[00:24:38] and therefore are more willing to hire workers, right?

[00:24:40] So there are policies that the government

[00:24:42] around the world including Nepal are working on

[00:24:45] and again if I miss something

[00:24:47] or there's major ones that I missed

[00:24:49] please feel free to jump in.

[00:24:51] Slesi mentioned, you mentioned like there are

[00:24:55] the government is signing a lot of new

[00:24:58] agreements with different destinies in the country

[00:25:00] and this also has been in if you look at

[00:25:03] the 15th deployment plan and also the ministries,

[00:25:05] strategies you can see that they want to

[00:25:08] find this newer destinies for

[00:25:10] Nepal immigrant workers and which is also

[00:25:12] different from the political rhetoric

[00:25:14] that is ongoing in Nepal right now as well.

[00:25:20] And to supplement this kind of like

[00:25:23] the policies that are being implemented

[00:25:25] in the policy direction, we can also see from

[00:25:28] data that Nepali are also going to a lot of

[00:25:31] newer destinies and like if you look in the past

[00:25:34] most of our migration or at least international

[00:25:37] labor migration occur to the GCC countries

[00:25:40] that the Gulf countries and also to Malaysia

[00:25:43] but recently and even the Nepal labor

[00:25:46] migration report showed that an increasing

[00:25:48] number of Nepalese are migrating to European

[00:25:51] countries like Malta, Romania, Cyprus and

[00:25:54] Croatia are emerging as a very important

[00:25:56] destination for Nepali migrant workers.

[00:25:59] Amina ji what do you think brought

[00:26:02] distance in the trend of migration in Nepal?

[00:26:06] In my opinion you know, Mesa would be

[00:26:09] exposure and probably I won't be wrong

[00:26:13] when I say Nepal malteries which is

[00:26:16] by the manche they find it autonomously

[00:26:19] and this is a government catch us up.

[00:26:23] People started to migrate to Gulf countries

[00:26:26] Malaysia and others so obviously they have

[00:26:29] come in contact with migrants from other

[00:26:31] countries and that's how that network has

[00:26:33] actually built over a period of time

[00:26:36] and this I think where is where it started

[00:26:39] this expansion because I had spoke with

[00:26:42] few people like who were working in Dubai

[00:26:44] and we're thinking of going to the other

[00:26:46] destination because they have managed to

[00:26:48] get that networks. Migration is an

[00:26:50] important part in the network.

[00:26:52] You know that you migration, if you

[00:26:54] have a formalized channel, formalized

[00:26:57] channel is also an important role

[00:27:00] for the network and this is your

[00:27:02] migration scholarship network is

[00:27:04] probably the most important part.

[00:27:06] Having said that, what other factor

[00:27:08] do you have? You have natural

[00:27:10] graduation, your remittance

[00:27:13] use is known. One of the most

[00:27:16] prioritized sector of remittance use is

[00:27:18] education. My priority is to

[00:27:21] study my children. My children

[00:27:23] have not studied plus two. Now I have

[00:27:25] a network, I have exposed, I have

[00:27:27] seen many people studying my children

[00:27:29] and now I start to think what

[00:27:31] could be other destination.

[00:27:34] When they are ready for another

[00:27:37] destination, they say you live

[00:27:39] a migration to graduate and shift

[00:27:41] to study.

[00:27:43] Government

[00:27:45] is also known in the media.

[00:27:47] Migration is always, you are talking

[00:27:49] about two nations, transnational

[00:27:51] issues and protection.

[00:27:53] A lot of challenges.

[00:27:55] These challenges have

[00:27:57] persisted despite many

[00:27:59] efforts.

[00:28:01] There has been

[00:28:03] efforts but it has been very

[00:28:05] difficult.

[00:28:07] As part of a person who has been

[00:28:09] working in this sector for quite

[00:28:11] sometime now, what could be

[00:28:13] other safer and more lucrative

[00:28:15] destinations?

[00:28:17] In the search, this

[00:28:19] started to expand.

[00:28:21] And then I think the third

[00:28:23] point, it was very

[00:28:25] interesting.

[00:28:27] Migrants are also

[00:28:29] important.

[00:28:31] The problem of the

[00:28:33] migrants is the deportation.

[00:28:35] The problem of the Nepali

[00:28:37] migrants is that they are

[00:28:39] two years old and they are

[00:28:41] three years old.

[00:28:43] They are not given the same age.

[00:28:45] They have to return home.

[00:28:47] Nepali migrants

[00:28:49] have unskilled people.

[00:28:51] They are very hard working

[00:28:53] and loyal.

[00:28:55] They are focused on their work

[00:28:57] and have a reputation.

[00:28:59] They are also

[00:29:01] employed.

[00:29:03] They don't know the figures

[00:29:05] that they are going to

[00:29:07] return home.

[00:29:09] And here, this was about a

[00:29:11] ticket back.

[00:29:13] They demand

[00:29:15] around 60-70%

[00:29:17] in terms of

[00:29:19] labor demand.

[00:29:21] So

[00:29:23] destination countries

[00:29:25] like

[00:29:27] Bandy and me are

[00:29:29] having a problem.

[00:29:31] They have a reputation of

[00:29:33] the poor.

[00:29:35] They are not

[00:29:37] able to

[00:29:39] to return home.

[00:29:41] So the problem of the

[00:29:43] migrants is that they are

[00:29:45] not

[00:29:47] able to return home.

[00:29:49] And there are

[00:29:51] many other

[00:29:53] migrants who

[00:29:55] are not able to return home.

[00:29:57] And they are not able

[00:29:59] to return home.

[00:30:01] So

[00:30:03] the problem

[00:30:05] of the poor

[00:30:07] is that

[00:30:09] you are old.

[00:30:11] You are 5-8 years old

[00:30:13] and as I said, it started

[00:30:15] autonomously.

[00:30:17] People going on their own

[00:30:19] and later now more bilateral

[00:30:21] agreements are starting.

[00:30:23] What do you think

[00:30:25] will be the implications

[00:30:27] of moving from

[00:30:29] home to the next generation?

[00:30:31] I have no idea.

[00:30:33] This makes me

[00:30:35] I am very interested in

[00:30:37] the Gulf countries, you know.

[00:30:39] Manchisansan by 40,

[00:30:41] Max 45, they are back.

[00:30:43] And every migrant

[00:30:45] who is going on their own

[00:30:47] can send maximum money back home.

[00:30:49] These were very clear.

[00:30:51] What would be the consequences?

[00:30:53] Will it remain

[00:30:55] your circular, certain period

[00:30:57] of time

[00:30:59] of time?

[00:31:01] Will it be

[00:31:03] gradual and come back?

[00:31:05] Will that happen?

[00:31:07] Or does it lead to more permanent

[00:31:09] shifts?

[00:31:11] And if it lives to the student

[00:31:13] migration and after

[00:31:15] student, many people are

[00:31:17] remaining behind.

[00:31:19] After certain

[00:31:21] time, remittance

[00:31:23] is not heard.

[00:31:25] And if you have a

[00:31:27] question,

[00:31:29] what kind of implications

[00:31:31] will this have?

[00:31:33] We will learn out of

[00:31:35] nurses very quickly.

[00:31:37] What happens to our own

[00:31:39] labor

[00:31:41] force, demand go?

[00:31:43] There are a couple of things I don't think

[00:31:45] that I really don't know

[00:31:47] to be honest.

[00:31:49] I think we need to have better

[00:31:51] understanding and better thoughts on

[00:31:53] what is happening in

[00:31:55] the U.S.

[00:31:57] countries.

[00:31:59] You are a professor.

[00:32:01] I don't know if that

[00:32:03] means much.

[00:32:05] Yeah, I mean,

[00:32:07] it makes sense what's happening,

[00:32:09] right?

[00:32:11] And you mentioned that the

[00:32:13] government policy here is catching up

[00:32:15] to what's happening in reality.

[00:32:17] But it is also true from the other

[00:32:19] side.

[00:32:21] We are not trying to

[00:32:23] make it a long-term

[00:32:25] simulation.

[00:32:27] But if you look at data,

[00:32:29] very recently,

[00:32:31] the number of temporary migrants that

[00:32:33] have entered OECD

[00:32:35] country together, out

[00:32:37] numbers, any permanent

[00:32:39] migration, they have taken in

[00:32:41] from any category, not just

[00:32:43] employment category.

[00:32:45] So I don't know how much this

[00:32:47] expectation that that kind of

[00:32:49] employment country is going to be

[00:32:51] different from what we see in

[00:32:53] GCC and Malaysia.

[00:32:55] I don't know how much that is going

[00:32:57] to come true.

[00:32:59] And this is just my personal view

[00:33:01] based on, I think

[00:33:03] those countries would eventually

[00:33:05] catch up into what's happening

[00:33:07] and hence bring out policies

[00:33:09] that are more protective

[00:33:11] of native workers.

[00:33:13] But at the same time allow

[00:33:15] a lot more migration into those

[00:33:17] countries.

[00:33:19] And I see the volume of

[00:33:21] migration to these countries

[00:33:23] definitely increasing at the same

[00:33:25] time, the increase

[00:33:27] in restrictions on labor market

[00:33:29] opportunities as well as

[00:33:31] social mobility or long-term

[00:33:33] assimilation in these countries.

[00:33:35] But we were saying before, in

[00:33:37] terms of the general idea of

[00:33:39] migration, we have to accept the fact

[00:33:41] that this is a globalized world

[00:33:43] and the global phenomena, it is

[00:33:45] a globalized world.

[00:33:47] And the reality of this is that

[00:33:49] there is a possibility of developed

[00:33:51] countries to restrict competition

[00:33:53] between natives and migrants.

[00:33:55] And there is a

[00:33:57] camp in policy where

[00:33:59] they advocate for a right-based

[00:34:01] approach, whereas even countries

[00:34:03] like Scandinavian countries, they

[00:34:05] want migrants to have

[00:34:07] same exposure at natives.

[00:34:09] But if you look at data, their

[00:34:11] policy does not allow them to

[00:34:13] restrict their competition with

[00:34:15] natives.

[00:34:17] There are a lot of papers that does

[00:34:19] the back of the envelope calculation

[00:34:21] and as much as GCC, I am not

[00:34:23] the holding banner for Malaysia

[00:34:25] and GCC type migration, obviously

[00:34:27] it has a lot of issues and

[00:34:29] studies that show these restrictions

[00:34:31] actually depress migration,

[00:34:33] migrant wages as well in

[00:34:35] addition to extreme examples

[00:34:37] of exploitation and all that.

[00:34:39] But GCC

[00:34:41] and Malaysia type migration

[00:34:43] contributes a lot more

[00:34:45] to bringing equity

[00:34:47] in the global market than

[00:34:49] policies that

[00:34:51] in one hand gives more

[00:34:53] access to migrants in terms

[00:34:55] of less competition, less restriction

[00:34:57] but also limits the number

[00:34:59] of migrants that can enter.

[00:35:01] So again I am sort of diverting here

[00:35:03] but we should be careful

[00:35:05] about how we think about that

[00:35:07] destination relative to today,

[00:35:09] especially comparing the nature

[00:35:11] of that migration today versus

[00:35:13] what is going to be in the future.

[00:35:15] I think just to add on to it, I think

[00:35:17] in the short run what is going to happen

[00:35:19] is the remittances probably would be higher

[00:35:21] and if Slis what you are

[00:35:23] implying to Bhayavan, if people

[00:35:25] come back, that would be

[00:35:27] wonderful. So we will have

[00:35:29] not only skill but

[00:35:31] world class

[00:35:33] nurses and other

[00:35:35] skill sources coming up

[00:35:37] and as I said

[00:35:39] that can actually be used

[00:35:41] as a catalyst

[00:35:43] maybe to develop better education systems

[00:35:45] here. When I say not only

[00:35:47] schools or university

[00:35:49] or the whole ecosystem of education

[00:35:51] and hospitality in other sectors

[00:35:53] so I think this is why

[00:35:55] it's important now to start thinking

[00:35:57] what does it mean

[00:35:59] because if that brainstorm

[00:36:01] happens, migration

[00:36:03] by the time migration happens

[00:36:05] by the time

[00:36:07] implications take place, action becomes too late

[00:36:09] to anticipate

[00:36:11] what is going to happen

[00:36:13] is the village is empty

[00:36:15] now the village is empty

[00:36:17] how will it be turned around

[00:36:19] that is the problem

[00:36:21] anticipation is going to happen

[00:36:23] and this is where I think more work needs to be done

[00:36:25] you have said before

[00:36:27] that the village is empty

[00:36:29] and you have said before

[00:36:31] but there are 15,000 nurses

[00:36:33] who have lost their jobs

[00:36:35] so

[00:36:37] not only like in the future

[00:36:39] but I think it's one of the

[00:36:41] issues that has not been talked about

[00:36:43] a lot

[00:36:45] our research

[00:36:47] is about the feminization of agriculture

[00:36:49] and literature

[00:36:51] and the levy of the shortage

[00:36:53] we have also brought it to you

[00:36:55] in the news

[00:36:57] your wife

[00:36:59] and your children

[00:37:01] we have brought it to you

[00:37:03] because of shortage of men

[00:37:05] we have seen it in the work load

[00:37:07] and we have seen it

[00:37:09] and

[00:37:11] we have brought it to you

[00:37:13] in the remittance

[00:37:15] in our economy

[00:37:17] but it is important

[00:37:19] we have brought it to you

[00:37:21] and also

[00:37:23] your population dynamics

[00:37:25] your social demographic

[00:37:27] now we have

[00:37:29] we have

[00:37:31] in the last two decades

[00:37:33] there has been exponential growth

[00:37:35] in the main migration

[00:37:37] our population dynamics

[00:37:39] and social demographic

[00:37:41] how many implications

[00:37:43] have been left

[00:37:45] there is

[00:37:47] literally

[00:37:49] divorce between migration and development

[00:37:51] we have

[00:37:53] so many migrations in the development plan

[00:37:55] we have more in the background

[00:37:57] than what is happening

[00:37:59] but then we are planning a project

[00:38:01] when I say we

[00:38:03] I do not want to say it in the government

[00:38:05] all of us

[00:38:07] we have created a project

[00:38:09] we have all been doing migration

[00:38:11] we are doing both

[00:38:13] but

[00:38:14] there are no implications for that

[00:38:16] and the thing that is happening

[00:38:18] is

[00:38:20] our assumptions

[00:38:22] the population remains as it is

[00:38:24] but

[00:38:26] my PhD

[00:38:28] was in 2010

[00:38:30] and that is when I had flagged up

[00:38:32] what left behind women

[00:38:34] is it good for women's empowerment

[00:38:36] and not one negrama

[00:38:38] especially when you see the needle shift

[00:38:40] you will not see

[00:38:42] and this is where I think we are not able

[00:38:44] to use migration to the extent

[00:38:46] but there is

[00:38:48] a lot of evidence

[00:38:50] how many percent of our national level

[00:38:52] of population

[00:38:54] is being used

[00:38:56] and the number of people

[00:38:58] who are not able to use migration

[00:39:00] for the sake of poverty reduction

[00:39:02] is not established

[00:39:04] not because we have been able

[00:39:06] to actually catalyse migration

[00:39:08] for poverty reduction

[00:39:10] again, you are right

[00:39:12] because of the way people have been spending

[00:39:14] their remittances

[00:39:16] you know that divorce

[00:39:18] I think is really doing a lot of harm

[00:39:20] and how to address this

[00:39:22] and how to keep it going

[00:39:24] I am like, this is the character

[00:39:26] that is being taken away from the people

[00:39:28] I think that if we are going to live

[00:39:30] even if you are not able to

[00:39:32] even close the gap

[00:39:34] does that not make sense

[00:39:36] to start thinking that people are going to live

[00:39:38] because at the moment we can't give

[00:39:40] that equivalent

[00:39:42] economic employment opportunity

[00:39:44] but there are remittances

[00:39:46] that are being taken away from this

[00:39:48] and I will give you an example

[00:39:50] of this

[00:39:52] no, because we have been so focused

[00:39:54] on stopping migration

[00:39:56] why do we do that

[00:39:58] because migration is almost like a train

[00:40:00] that is running down a hill

[00:40:02] you can't stop, you can manage

[00:40:04] that's what you need to do

[00:40:06] this man said that the population

[00:40:08] feminization of agriculture

[00:40:10] is not good

[00:40:12] but how much of a shift has it been

[00:40:14] brought on the extension

[00:40:16] services

[00:40:18] even it has not changed

[00:40:20] now we have a remittance

[00:40:22] so the sector of agriculture

[00:40:24] I am also a student of agriculture

[00:40:26] and my colleague

[00:40:28] from agriculture

[00:40:30] now we have used it as a blame

[00:40:32] because of this migration

[00:40:34] we don't perform in agriculture

[00:40:36] and 3-15-20 years

[00:40:38] before that

[00:40:40] we are all dependent on agriculture

[00:40:42] we can't do anything about agriculture

[00:40:44] now when the crisis is over

[00:40:46] because of this crisis

[00:40:48] what is the problem

[00:40:50] it's not because

[00:40:52] of migration that land

[00:40:54] is being left fallow

[00:40:56] I had actually done a study

[00:40:58] I am learning

[00:41:00] in the country

[00:41:02] even in the country

[00:41:04] there is no land fallow

[00:41:06] nowhere

[00:41:08] we used a mix method

[00:41:10] to really say it

[00:41:12] but it is not because of that

[00:41:14] there are migrations

[00:41:16] why is it not because of migration

[00:41:18] it is because of the long term

[00:41:20] it is the agriculture sector

[00:41:22] that is so

[00:41:24] non-commercial

[00:41:26] I am an agriculture economist

[00:41:28] and to keep my economic heart

[00:41:30] I am sorry for the crisis

[00:41:32] if I hold it

[00:41:34] it will explain it better

[00:41:36] if I use labour productivity

[00:41:38] now I will bring climate change

[00:41:40] I am trying to keep it

[00:41:42] it has become such a risky

[00:41:44] venture

[00:41:46] that it doesn't make sense to invest in it anymore

[00:41:48] why are you doing this

[00:41:50] not because of migration

[00:41:52] for decades we have neglected

[00:41:54] the sector of agriculture

[00:41:56] and it is not because of the hill agriculture

[00:41:58] but it has improved

[00:42:00] because of technology

[00:42:02] that we have imported

[00:42:04] from elsewhere

[00:42:06] it is not because of the hill

[00:42:08] I would say also global

[00:42:10] because globally the whole focus

[00:42:12] for reducing food security

[00:42:14] was on three or four crops

[00:42:16] maize wheat rice

[00:42:18] and none of these are good for hills

[00:42:20] when you invest in hills

[00:42:22] agriculture has remained stagnant

[00:42:24] why would people stay

[00:42:26] and agriculture

[00:42:28] is not an option

[00:42:30] so I think

[00:42:32] these are the reasons

[00:42:34] and because I am still

[00:42:36] focusing on this

[00:42:38] people are not staying

[00:42:40] as a young man

[00:42:42] it is a virus

[00:42:44] so how are you going to reach out to them

[00:42:46] no thoughts on that

[00:42:48] if everyone is old

[00:42:50] they will focus on the new

[00:42:52] no thoughts on that

[00:42:54] gender has remained as one tick box

[00:42:56] kind of thing

[00:42:58] I think this is where

[00:43:00] we have not managed to

[00:43:02] capitalize on

[00:43:04] benefits as much

[00:43:06] as it would have been possible

[00:43:08] probably Slitz will disagree

[00:43:10] because he is saying that globally

[00:43:12] it has been the same trend

[00:43:14] it is globally but I feel that

[00:43:16] there is a lot more that could have been

[00:43:18] capitalized

[00:43:20] yeah I mean

[00:43:24] I don't think this statement

[00:43:26] you would disagree which is

[00:43:28] I don't think there is little debate

[00:43:30] that there is immediate financial

[00:43:32] gains from migration

[00:43:34] and just because of the wage gap

[00:43:36] between these countries

[00:43:38] and most of the money migrants are

[00:43:40] and do come back to Nepal

[00:43:42] so

[00:43:44] and there is also a growing body of work

[00:43:46] over the last 2-3 decades now

[00:43:48] that show that remittance

[00:43:50] directly improves

[00:43:52] consumption of households

[00:43:54] which tends to be directly correlated

[00:43:56] with well-being and poverty

[00:43:58] as well as some sort of investment

[00:44:00] that has long term implication

[00:44:02] for what does this

[00:44:04] migration mean in the long run

[00:44:06] for that household itself

[00:44:08] but what I do find

[00:44:10] at least in the

[00:44:12] context of Nepal

[00:44:14] and the way people discuss

[00:44:16] the impact of migration

[00:44:18] through remittance is oh

[00:44:20] are migrants spending money the right way

[00:44:22] or the wrong way right

[00:44:24] and I don't think that's a productive

[00:44:26] argument to have

[00:44:28] partly because

[00:44:30] it depends on preference

[00:44:32] like if I earn something

[00:44:34] I have made many decisions that are

[00:44:36] probably not you know

[00:44:38] I might regret

[00:44:40] so what I'm trying to say is

[00:44:42] at least

[00:44:44] logically and conceptually

[00:44:46] thinking about

[00:44:48] what does remittance should be

[00:44:50] spent on is a very difficult

[00:44:52] and unanswerable question

[00:44:54] if we go into the nitty-gritty detail

[00:44:56] of oh the migrants shouldn't be spending

[00:44:58] on wedding expenses

[00:45:00] oh migrants shouldn't be spending on shoes

[00:45:02] but

[00:45:04] having said that what

[00:45:06] economic theory does allow

[00:45:08] is for us to sort of identify

[00:45:10] two key

[00:45:12] challenges that migrant households

[00:45:14] do face in terms of

[00:45:16] when they decide

[00:45:18] and how they decide how to spend that money

[00:45:20] right and those two are first

[00:45:22] of all this idea

[00:45:24] that goes back to the temporary

[00:45:26] future of migration

[00:45:28] the increase in income of a migrant

[00:45:30] and a migrant household is temporary

[00:45:32] right so then the question

[00:45:34] becomes how do I

[00:45:36] smooth out that

[00:45:38] increase in income across my

[00:45:40] lifetime of consumption

[00:45:42] right and we all face that like

[00:45:44] retirement is an example of that

[00:45:46] right we all know that at some point

[00:45:48] we stop working our income

[00:45:50] sources and but we want to consume

[00:45:52] even after we retire and therefore

[00:45:54] we can smooth out consumption

[00:45:56] so in that context

[00:45:58] migrants do face issues of

[00:46:00] making that decision right and that

[00:46:02] investing on future

[00:46:04] consumption is basically savings

[00:46:06] right so

[00:46:08] the question then becomes do migrants

[00:46:10] and migrants household have the right

[00:46:12] financial literacy and access

[00:46:14] to financial instruments

[00:46:16] through banks that allows them

[00:46:18] to invest and save money

[00:46:20] so that they can smooth consumption

[00:46:22] according to their preference

[00:46:24] right and again

[00:46:26] some people have high discount rates

[00:46:28] some people have low discount rates

[00:46:30] so it's difficult to say what is the

[00:46:32] correct appropriate amount to save

[00:46:34] but what we do need to make sure

[00:46:36] that given a migrant faces that decision

[00:46:38] they have the right instrument

[00:46:40] and access to banking sector

[00:46:42] for them to allocate

[00:46:44] their preferred amount of saving

[00:46:46] right and not over consume

[00:46:48] just because there's no access to saving

[00:46:50] and along that path there are a lot

[00:46:52] of intervention studies

[00:46:54] that sort of focuses on

[00:46:56] all this family

[00:46:58] migrant financial training

[00:47:00] programs sort of fall under that umbrella

[00:47:02] expanding banking access

[00:47:04] or developing certain kind of

[00:47:06] saving

[00:47:08] products and instruments by bank

[00:47:10] targeted towards migrant households

[00:47:12] but there are also other ones

[00:47:14] which are sort of more niche

[00:47:16] which is

[00:47:18] you know we all like to save

[00:47:20] but we save less because we are in discipline

[00:47:22] right so there's this thing about

[00:47:24] time inconsistent preferences

[00:47:26] so there are studies

[00:47:28] that specifically target

[00:47:30] migrant households where you commit

[00:47:32] at the time of earning

[00:47:34] that you're going to save a certain amount

[00:47:36] and you have to incentivize them on

[00:47:38] by topping it off just like

[00:47:40] our employer does on retirement

[00:47:42] so there are these

[00:47:44] stuff but the general evidence

[00:47:46] from that

[00:47:48] the one I'm very familiar with is

[00:47:50] on Al Salvedo and migrants in DC

[00:47:52] so they were offered

[00:47:54] a banking instrument where

[00:47:56] you commit certain amount to

[00:47:58] education of the kid

[00:48:00] and the intervention

[00:48:02] tops it off like doubles it or something like that

[00:48:04] but generally

[00:48:06] the result is the take up rate

[00:48:08] of those instrument in that context were fairly low

[00:48:10] which means that

[00:48:12] you know they were optimally

[00:48:14] investing in children's education

[00:48:16] and they had they didn't have the constraint

[00:48:18] of not being able to save properly

[00:48:20] right in that context but doesn't mean

[00:48:22] that doesn't exist in Nepal that problem

[00:48:24] and one thing you do see

[00:48:26] in all data is remittance

[00:48:28] typically tends to increase

[00:48:30] you mentioned education and education

[00:48:32] is an example of investment

[00:48:34] for future consumption so what you are doing

[00:48:36] is basically investing on your kid

[00:48:38] that improves the kids

[00:48:40] future income

[00:48:42] and as long as the kid is part of the household

[00:48:44] and there's a joint household decision making

[00:48:46] that's basically retirement

[00:48:48] the other aspect

[00:48:50] I think where a meaningful

[00:48:52] discussion can be had

[00:48:54] from

[00:48:56] economic fundamentals is this idea

[00:48:58] of a transnational household

[00:49:00] and what I mean by that is the income

[00:49:02] earner and the location of the source

[00:49:04] of the income is different

[00:49:06] from the

[00:49:08] person or the household that spends that money

[00:49:10] right and which is not typical

[00:49:12] in many household context right

[00:49:14] usually the income earner and the

[00:49:16] expenditure of that income

[00:49:18] is physically there so each other

[00:49:20] can check and balance each other

[00:49:22] so in this context there are a lot of inefficiencies

[00:49:24] in terms of how the

[00:49:26] household decides to spend that money

[00:49:28] arises due to asymmetric

[00:49:30] information right so the migrant

[00:49:32] doesn't necessarily have control

[00:49:34] or the ability to observe

[00:49:36] how the money is being spent by

[00:49:38] the household member once I send that money

[00:49:40] that leads to

[00:49:42] often migrant making sub-optimal

[00:49:44] decisions and how

[00:49:46] and the frequency and the amount

[00:49:48] of money he or she spends

[00:49:50] as well as sends back home and saves

[00:49:52] right so in that

[00:49:54] problem setting

[00:49:56] there are research where again

[00:49:58] in partnership with different banks

[00:50:00] develop financial

[00:50:02] instruments for migrant workers

[00:50:04] where it provides

[00:50:06] more visibility

[00:50:08] even after they send money back home

[00:50:10] of how the household is

[00:50:12] spending that money right

[00:50:14] as well as control over

[00:50:16] stopping household

[00:50:18] from spending additional money

[00:50:20] if the migrant disagrees with

[00:50:22] the flow outflow of money from the bank account

[00:50:24] and you do see effects

[00:50:26] on that and I just want to say

[00:50:28] lastly the biggest one where you

[00:50:30] do see effects are the cost

[00:50:32] of remittances which is perhaps not

[00:50:34] relevant in today but

[00:50:36] 10 years ago it was the main

[00:50:38] area of work where

[00:50:40] the cost of remittance was too high

[00:50:42] and just providing subsidies

[00:50:44] tends to not only increase the

[00:50:46] frequency of remittance

[00:50:48] money that comes in

[00:50:50] but just the overall

[00:50:52] money that basically comes

[00:50:54] to the destination

[00:50:56] sending country and not migrants spending

[00:50:58] money there quote unquote

[00:51:00] frivolously

[00:51:04] I just add one last point

[00:51:06] I think

[00:51:08] what I find a bit disturbing

[00:51:10] oily the equality

[00:51:12] trend and where we need

[00:51:14] to be very cautious that that doesn't happen

[00:51:16] is that passing

[00:51:18] on that pattern to the next generation

[00:51:20] and getting trapped into this low skilled

[00:51:22] low

[00:51:24] remittance

[00:51:26] low earning ways

[00:51:28] based remittances

[00:51:30] I was just back from Sindapalchuk

[00:51:32] asking them

[00:51:34] a troper sir be this one bus you

[00:51:36] come to us so Kate the

[00:51:38] investment and that's

[00:51:40] a given to

[00:51:42] such a chetra panina but

[00:51:44] this money very I don't know from

[00:51:46] where this banter comment

[00:51:48] was a matter and why they came

[00:51:50] with the whole of the book but

[00:51:52] the girls are other boundary

[00:51:54] so can't even say that

[00:51:56] we can't grow and then

[00:51:58] they shared that

[00:52:00] what are you going to do when the hero

[00:52:02] me robot's a barocca chip or the sir

[00:52:04] now he would go next

[00:52:06] and almost the same

[00:52:08] destinations of a boy who

[00:52:10] migration cycles are cute I was what I

[00:52:12] is going that is no graduation

[00:52:14] and this is

[00:52:16] something that I think we need to be very

[00:52:18] cautious that it does not happen that

[00:52:20] this dependency on

[00:52:22] low skilled

[00:52:24] migration does not pass on from one

[00:52:26] generation to another that

[00:52:28] would be absolutely cautious about

[00:52:30] thank you I mean as is Lacey and

[00:52:32] we are almost over time

[00:52:34] of 45 minutes I know

[00:52:36] that migration is such a multi

[00:52:38] facet multi dimensional thing that we have so

[00:52:40] many topics to cover but

[00:52:42] now I would like to

[00:52:44] open the floor for question and

[00:52:46] answers and conversations

[00:52:48] thank you for tuning into

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