Mandakini Surie on India’s Global Ambitions, G20 Presidency, Response to China's Rise, and Implications for South Asia

[00:00:11] - [Nirjan Rai]
Namaste and welcome to Pods by PEI. A policy discussion My name is Nirjan Rai. In this episode I sit with Mandakini Surie to discuss India's global ambition and its implications for South Asia. Mandakini has over a decade and half of experience of working as an international development practitioner. While her most recent work is centered around international development cooperation, civic engagement and social accountability, she holds sectoral expertise in the areas of natural resource governance especially the intersections of water, food and energy.

[00:00:48] - [Nirjan Rai]
She has worked with organizations including the Australian Governance DFAT, the Asia Foundation and UNDP. A Shevirin scholar, she has a Masters in Development Studies from the London School of Economics and is an alumna of the Draper Hill Summer Fellows Program at Stanford University. Mandakini and I discuss India's global aspirations exemplified by its recent assumption of the G20 Presidency. The evolution of India's foreign policy including the increasing role of development cooperation and soft power to pursue its ideals of a multipolar world with itself as one of the power centers. We also discuss the rise of China, especially in South Asia as well as the critical position it holds and the various Indo Pacific strategies that have been formed to come to China. We end the discussion with the thought that India's global ambition begins by investing in a strong and prosperous neighborhood. I hope you enjoy the conversation.

Welcome to PODS by PEI, Mandakini. It's great to have you on our show. We are lucky that we could catch you during a short visit to Kathmandu this time.

[00:01:53] - [Nirjan Rai]
How are you doing today?

[00:01:54] - [Mandakini Surie]
Hi, Nirjan. Thanks so much for having me. It's a real pleasure to be here and to be in conversation with you. And, yeah, I'm really excited to have this conversation with you today.

[00:02:02] - [Nirjan Rai]
Alright. Excellent. So, Mandakini, what I'd like to discuss with you today is about India's global ambition. And, I guess it is exemplified by among other things, India recently assuming the G-20 presidency. And what all this means to its neighboring countries like Nepal, in the South Asia region.

[00:02:21] - [Nirjan Rai]
Shall we begin?

[00:02:22] - [Mandakini Surie]
Yes. Let's get into it.

[00:02:24] - [Nirjan Rai]
So the the fanfare with which India's G20 presidency was launched, It seems that India is highlighting this as its defining moment in the global stage. But before we get into the significance of this, could you please tell our listeners what G20 is? What is the relevance of this institutional arrangement, especially in today's global context where almost everything seems to be in disarray? From the economic and social impact of COVID-19, the Russia Ukraine war, to the impending climate crisis.

[00:02:55] - [Mandakini Surie]
Okay. So that's a really big question. So I'm gonna try and answer it section by section. So first of all the G20 very simply stands for group of twenty which is basically an intergovernmental body comprised of 19 countries in the European Union. And it's an interesting forum because unlike say the G7 or other multilateral organizations and forums that exist.

[00:03:17] - [Mandakini Surie]
It has a mix of both developed and developing nations. And if you want to just imagine the G20 in numbers, it comprises 85% of global GDP, 75% of international trade and two thirds of the world's population. So that's a lot of countries and that's a lot of people. So little bit about the history of the G20. It was formed in 1999 in the wake of the Asian financial crisis and really it was meant to be a forum that brought together finance ministers and sort of the central banks of established and emerging economies to deal with the crisis at that time and its focus was really supposed to be on addressing macro economic global financial issues.

[00:03:56] - [Mandakini Surie]
But over a period of time, I guess its mandate has kind of broadened quite a bit and today the G20 is dealing with all kinds of issues from climate change to energy, counter terrorism, migration, etc. So why is the G20 relevant today? I think as you already said in your opening statement, this is a period of unprecedented global crisis from climate change to the Covid pandemic, the Ukraine Russia crisis, which has really sent shock waves around the world in terms of the impact it's had on food, fuel, fertilize and just inflation in general. It's also a time when we are seeing multilateralism not being particularly effective. So if you look at the pandemic, the UN system, you know, the response left a lot to be desired.

[00:04:40] - [Mandakini Surie]
The pandemic also I think unearthed a lot of inequity in terms of global North South relations, particularly around vaccine access and equity. And as we know with the Ukraine Russia crisis also there is revival of Cold war narratives about whose side are you on. So in a time when the world is quite polarised and is actually facing some pretty deep planetary existential crisis, I think a forum like the G20 is very relevant and very important both in terms of its mandate to address some of these macroeconomic issues, but also broader issues around climate change, energy, etcetera or, you know, some of those issues. But also in the fact that it it is trying very practically to dialogue with countries both developed and emerging economies to try and find practical ways to move the agenda forward. Now if you look at the recent summit in Bali, for example, which was a culmination of Indonesia's presidency.

[00:05:37] - [Mandakini Surie]
In many ways, there was concerns that there wouldn't be a declaration and it took a lot of back channel efforts and dialogue between countries. And the reason behind that was countries different positions on Russia and Ukraine. So even a forum like the G20 has its work cut out for itself. But I think particularly now we need more forums for dialogue than fewer. So we really need the G20 is the answer in a nutshell.

[00:06:01] - [Nirjan Rai]
Now that we have a a broad understanding of G20, can you give us an insight into what significance there is for India?

[00:06:10] - [Mandakini Surie]
So India assumed presidency of the G20 on the December 1 from Indonesia, which was the outgoing president of who has the outgoing presidency, I guess, of of the G20. And it's a really significant moment because it comes in the same year that India has marked seventy five years of independence. So in a sense, if you want to imagine that it is really coming India coming into its own on the global stage. And of course, this is in a process that has been in the works for many years. India has been playing a more significant role in the UN through other forums such as BRICS, IBSA, etc.

[00:06:45] - [Mandakini Surie]
And really kind of putting itself out there as being a country that has something to say on issues of global public goods. We saw that particularly during the pandemic when he was very vocal about the need for equity in terms of vaccine access or in terms of there was a need for more solidarity between the North and the South on post pandemic recovery. And I think also in other forums whether it's climate change or energy security or resilience for example. India has been quite vocal about some of these issues. So I think India's presidency comes at a very unique time in India's own trajectory as nation.

[00:07:18] - [Mandakini Surie]
But also comes at a very important time in I guess important time globally. And as we've already discussed, it's not an easy time. It's not going to be an easy presidency for India. So what are some of the challenges that India's presidency is going to face? We've discussed, of immense global churning, the pandemic climate change recession on the horizon.

[00:07:39] - [Mandakini Surie]
We're seeing armed conflict in Europe for the first time, which has really in a sense, revived a lot of those cold war narratives. It's very polarized views, guess, about Russia's interventions in Ukraine and you see a lot of us versus them and countries taking sides. So I think it's not an easy time for India to be navigating these waters and actually trying to bring countries together on a common platform of the G20 to discuss issues which actually require a lot of cooperation and a lot of coordination. Because as we've seen with the crisis like Ukraine for example. What happens in Europe doesn't just stay in Europe.

[00:08:13] - [Mandakini Surie]
It's had a ripple effect all over the world in terms of food, fuel, fertilizer prices what that's done for inflation. The kind of political ramifications that has. The impact it has in terms of socio economic impact it has in terms of employment jobs, wages all of those things. So I think that's the challenge before India. What are the opportunities.

[00:08:32] - [Mandakini Surie]
I think India has been really vocal for quite some time and particularly post pandemic about this need for solidarity of coming together. And if you look at say India's motto or I guess India's vision statement for the G20, it's one world, one family, one future. And I think that really covers it. We have like one world that we need to address these issues. We're one family.

[00:08:56] - [Mandakini Surie]
And that idea of one family actually comes from a very foundational tenant of Indian foreign policy and development cooperation, which is the Sanskrit term called Vasudeva Kattumbakam which is the world is one family. And so I think India has really been pushing this idea of global solidarity, of southern solidarity of kind of coming together and tackling these issues to get, you know, I guess, jointly.

[00:09:18] - [Nirjan Rai]
So, Mandakini, can you what are some of the major items on the Indian agenda and how does it plan to execute them?

[00:09:24] - [Mandakini Surie]
So I think India's focus is going to be on some of these global public goods issues. Right? So the environment, health, women's empowerment, climate financing, circular economy, food security, energy security, disaster risk resilience. Those are some of kind of the stated areas where India is likely to engage. Focus very much I think on needs and interests and priorities of at least putting on the table the voices of the developing South.

[00:09:49] - [Mandakini Surie]
I mean that's definitely something that has come through very strongly. It was very interesting that for the first time, I think in the G20's history, the G20 troika which is basically the it includes the countries that held the presidency, that hold the presidency and that will hold the presidency. So in this case, Indonesia, India and then Brazil will hold the G20 presidency in 2024. Those are all developing countries which I think really speaks powerfully about how this G20, particularly this year from now until next September, is going to be so different. So, I mean, those issues will definitely be at the forefront.

[00:10:27] - [Mandakini Surie]
And I think in terms of key focus areas and this is not I mean this is something that India has already spoken about. I think climate change is one that's very much going to be up there. India has been really vocal on the issue of climate change and has demonstrated leadership in terms of its own commitments. Its own leadership of say the International Solar Alliance and the Coalition for Disaster Resilient Infrastructure and Prime Minister Modi himself in several forums has actually including at COP has talked about the need for a more sustainable lifestyle, a more holistic approach to how we actually live. You know, think people planet prosperity that kind of an approach.

[00:11:04] - [Mandakini Surie]
And I think that will definitely be a focus. This idea of needing a lifestyle change in how we address these issues. The second area I think is digital. Definitely digital transformation, digital inclusion. You know, we we know the India start up story.

[00:11:18] - [Mandakini Surie]
We know India's, you know, digital how how much success India has had in that space. And I think India has a lot to showcase there both in terms of its startup culture, its technology and innovation in that space. But also the role that apps and platforms such as CoVIN or even the digital payment apps. What that can do in terms of transforming the ways in which economies work for example. And I think the third area which is really critical is health.

[00:11:47] - [Mandakini Surie]
I think we can't overestimate how important that one actually is. And I think India has really emphasized the need for a more equitable post pandemic recovery particularly in terms of vaccine access but also in terms of trying to use technology innovatively to help fight the pandemic. So India's Arogya Setu platform etc. So I think climate change, digital inclusion and digital technology as well as health are likely to be those three focus areas. And just very quickly, I think important to emphasize that the G20 as I said has different tracks.

[00:12:20] - [Mandakini Surie]
So there's the finance track, there's the Sherpa track, which actually has a whole set of work streams around agriculture, culture, development, digital economy. And then there's a separate one around engagement with different kinds of actors. So civil society, think tanks, women and youth, etcetera. So I think broadly, those are the areas that India is likely to focus on.

[00:12:40] - [Nirjan Rai]
Moving the conversation forward beyond just G20, there is a general agreement that China's rise as a global superpower has ended the American unipolar world. Reading up on the Indian media, there are discussions about how this presidency will help India shape a multipolar world with itself as one of the power centers in the new political order. What are your reflection on this global ambition beyond G20 that India has?

[00:13:06] - [Mandakini Surie]
So I think the idea of a multipolar world is one that is really, important to India and historically as well. If you look at India's post independence period when you had the cold war and you had Russia versus The US, India was one of the founding members of the nonaligned movement. And this idea of being a champion of the global south of being a voice of that group of countries is something that India has always championed. And I think India also, if you look at the current crisis currently in Europe, the Russia Ukraine crisis and how much that has polarized the West. And there's been a lot of criticism of India's position in that India has not overtly.

[00:13:50] - [Mandakini Surie]
India has of course asked for a return to for an end of the hostilities for the end of any of the aggression of and also for a return has kind of emphasized the need for dialogue. But at the same time India continues to engage with Russia, continues to trade with Russia, continues to buy oil etc. And I think it's very interesting to see India's line on this It is said that it is not for India to take sides but it is for India to try and bring all parties to the same table and try and negotiate ways in which you can address these issues.

[00:14:22] - [Nirjan Rai]
Okay. So talking about the rise of China and the point that you made of India working a fine line. Now how do you see these various alliances that are building up in the Indo Pacific to counter China and the role that India has in all these alliances?

[00:14:38] - [Mandakini Surie]
So the Indo Pacific is essentially a geographic construct that bridges and links both the Indian and Pacific Oceans. And in in the last decade or so, it has really gained prominence not only as a geographic construct but also essentially as a new theater for geostrategic competition and cooperation. And the Indo Pacific and and one of the factors which is really a key driver of a lot of this engagement by India, by Japan, by Australia and a whole bunch of other actors has been the rise and emergence of China. And China's increasing geo strategic, geo economic footprint in a lot of countries kind of bridging this Indo Pacific from, you know, Africa, South Asia, East Asia into even the Pacific Islands. I think the you know, as you said, there are a number of alliances that have emerged.

[00:15:29] - [Mandakini Surie]
And India is actually playing quite a prominent role in in in them. And one of the most significant, of course, is the quad, which is made up of India, The US, Japan, and Australia. And the quad has has over a period of time really expanded in terms of both its mandate and also the ways in which these four countries cooperate together. So, you know, what brings India, Japan, The US and Australia together is this idea that their commitment to a rules based international order. They want an open, free, inclusive Indo Pacific region.

[00:15:58] - [Mandakini Surie]
It is very focused actually around maritime security, also increasing the digital and cyber security. And over a period of time, it has expanded to include a lot of other areas such as for example, cyber technology. There's a quad vaccine initiative. There's now a quad infrastructure initiative as well. So you see countries, these countries in the region really cooperating a lot more.

[00:16:22] - [Mandakini Surie]
And a lot of this as you said has been as seen as a response to the growing footprint of China. And as a response, I guess, a way to try and curb some of that or provide alternatives perhaps to, China's rise in this theater of, engagement.

[00:16:40] - [Khushi Hang]
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[00:17:01] - [Khushi Hang]
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[00:17:27] - [Khushi Hang]
Now let's get back to the episode.

[00:17:31] - [Nirjan Rai]
Mandakini, with with India having a a pretty prominent role in these alliances, what do you see the implications for South Asia in this regard?

[00:17:40] - [Mandakini Surie]
With the Indo Pacific becoming such a popular framing in a sense and we've seen particularly in the last few years with all these strategies coming out US etc, which see a very or seek a very prominent role for India in this region. In many ways, as we've discussed, you know, a balancing force to China. And that's based around this idea that these countries share common principles with India in terms of support for democratic values, rules based international order etc. So I think there is definitely a positioning of that and in many ways I think it's important for us to acknowledge that that has been the dominant framing of why these countries are engaging with India on these issues. Even though, you know and China has been quite vocal in terms of also seeing that and calling it out and saying, from its perspective, a lot of these appear to be very, I guess, positioning China in a particular or or referring to China in a particular way.

[00:18:34] - [Mandakini Surie]
I think what does that mean for South Asia? That's a really good question. You know, from from the research and reading that I have done, really, you know, these Indo Pacific strategies are looking at positioning India and then looking out. You know, it's really not centered around India's necessarily its its role in of course, there is that element of India being perhaps reducing the footprint that or being a balancing force as we've discussed to providing countries in the region with more choices. But that is contingent on India's ability to in a sense walk the talk, meet its own commitments, deliver on initiatives, projects, etc.

[00:19:08] - [Mandakini Surie]
But I think for these alliances themselves, they are not necessarily very focused around looking at the region. India's immediate neighbourhood is definitely India's own foreign policy interest. But I think it does open up the possibility of say, perhaps India engaging through these alliances with countries in the region in new and interesting ways. So for example, for the longest time within Indian foreign policy, was this idea that India chose to engage bilaterally, particularly with neighbors in the region. We don't have many examples of triangular cooperation.

[00:19:44] - [Mandakini Surie]
BBIN is probably one of those initiatives where you do see triangular subregional cooperation. So whether, for example, over a period of time with initiatives like the quad or other triangular cooperation arrangements that India is now formed with other countries, whether that provides opportunities for both, whether it's financing or whether it's joint product projects in areas which would support say the interest of countries in the region. I think that would be really interesting and to me, it would also make sense in terms of bringing in a sense the bringing home in a sense this idea of neighborhood first in what India could do with some of the support that it's it's got and some of the backing in a sense that it's got from from these alliances. But currently, don't see that as necessarily a focus. One area is where some of that I think the quad vaccine initiative is one example for ex you know, where India is looking at certainly being the first responder and prime responder for the region on that.

[00:20:45] - [Nirjan Rai]
So now that you've talked about India's role in these various alliances, now let's direct our discussion toward South Asia. As as India seeks a global presence, China seems to be creeping into its neighborhood, which has generally been considered to be India's fear of influence. Now the the China India relationship is at a very low point, with border skirmishes happening just recently. Now we could have a discussion on the India China relationship and implications for South Asia. But what I would like to discuss today is more of a long term observation about China's increasing presence in in South Asia, be it in Sri Lanka or Nepal.

[00:21:25] - [Nirjan Rai]
What do you make of India's response to this phenomenon?

[00:21:30] - [Mandakini Surie]
That's a really good question and also a really hard one. So obviously India is very concerned about China's growing footprint in South Asia. In fact, it's not even growing. Think the footprint is very much there and it's obvious. And in many ways, I think India's response has been quite late.

[00:21:48] - [Mandakini Surie]
India has very much seen, as you said, South Asia as its neighborhood in many ways, backyard. And I think the backyard didn't receive a lot of attention until quite late in the day, whereas other guests had already come and kind of, taken a seat at the table. So in many ways, India has been playing catch up. And I think there was a lot of hope and expectation when prime minister Modi came into power in 2014. And, you know, there was this whole focus on neighborhood first and all the SAARC heads of state were invited to his inauguration.

[00:22:15] - [Mandakini Surie]
But in many ways, dream of SAARC and regional cooperation really hasn't lived up to its expectations. And I think because there are several reasons for that. One is, of course, there are these historical legacies from colonialism, partition, various other factors that continue to mire and bog down the day to day mechanics of those relationships. I think the second thing is that India very often overestimates its own influence in many of the countries in its region. And I think the third area is about India's ability to walk the talk.

[00:22:46] - [Mandakini Surie]
So for example, very often there is a criticism of say Chinese development assistance in particular countries and those may be valid, and we're not getting into those conversations. There are equal criticisms about say the nature of Indian development assistance and the way in which Indian contracts or Indian projects are delivered in third countries. What are some of the implementation issues there? And I think those are issues that very often are not addressed when questions are raised around why progress on either bilateral engagement with countries in South Asia is not moving forward or the region as a whole. And I think to be fair, there has been an effort, particularly in the last few years to try and find common ground.

[00:23:27] - [Mandakini Surie]
So if you think about say, you know, India's engagement on climate change, the fact that it's championing or heading the International Solar Alliance or the Coalition for Disaster Resilient Infrastructure. It is trying to find common ground and find ways to engage with countries in the region without getting bogged down in some of these historical past dependencies or legacies. But I suspect that also India often is quite naive in the way in which it expects its assistance or its support, whether it's humanitarian or whatever it might be and what it can expect in return. I mean, all countries are going to look to their own national and strategic interest first just as India does. And so the expectation that because India say supports Bangladesh on a particular issue or because it provides loan and grant assistance to Sri Lanka.

[00:24:15] - [Mandakini Surie]
It does not preclude Bangladesh or Sri Lanka or any other country for that matter, Myanmar, Bhutan from engaging with China, which is also a very strong dominant power in this region and cannot be wished away. So I think it's about really India acknowledging that countries have options and if it is not going to be able to deliver on its own commitments or its own ambitions then countries will look elsewhere.

[00:24:39] - [Nirjan Rai]
So you mentioned China presenting itself as an option for the countries in the neighborhood, India's neighborhood. Now what can India do to try to influence or try to attract, its neighbors into its camp?

[00:24:56] - [Mandakini Surie]
Honestly, I think a question like that it comes down to walking the talk. Know, if you're going to say that you have a neighborhood first policy, it sounds great on paper, but what does that actually translate in terms of actual practicalities on the ground. Right? And I think it's important to look at what India is able to deliver at a bilateral level because that's where countries will seek their own interests and as a region as a whole. So I mean, I think you've already seen, if you look at the region, we've tried various experiments.

[00:25:24] - [Mandakini Surie]
SAARC hasn't been particularly successful. It's further fragmented with, you know, subregional cooperation with BBI and where there's been some incremental progress on issues of, you know, trade and transit, for example. But even then, we seem to get bogged down in kind of the nitty gritties and the details. So I think it's about I think it's about India identifying the mechanisms or the levers through which it can get things to move along. And I think in many ways, while you're trying to come at it from the South Asia regional cooperation point of view, it's probably about actually easing some of those bilateral tensions and issues first and genuinely trying to respond to some of those questions or concerns that might be raised.

[00:26:05] - [Mandakini Surie]
I mean, I don't know if I would necessarily answer your question, but I think it is about how do you attract somebody to your camp is by being a responsive and delivering on the commitments that you make.

[00:26:16] - [Nirjan Rai]
So one of the tools that India has in its foreign policy, its development cooperation, which has been a prominent part of its diplomacy, especially in the South Asia and Nepal has been one of the largest beneficiaries of Indian aid. How do you see the Indian aid being used by India and how is it evolving to engage with its, within its neighborhood?

[00:26:43] - [Mandakini Surie]
So India is often referred to as a new donor, but in actual fact India has been providing development assistance in some form or the other as early as in 1940, so soon after India's independence. And of course a lot of that was to its immediate region. And so Indian Development Cooperation has as you said it's grown both in volume as well as in the shape it has taken over the years. And India uses a variety of modalities to provide its development assistance, its development cooperation. So lines of credit, loans, grants and aid.

[00:27:15] - [Mandakini Surie]
A lot of capacity development in terms of scholarships particularly in training and capacity building through India's ITEC program. And essentially these are vehicles with which India can showcase its expertise in different sectors. So whether its information and communication technology or telemedicine, renewable energy, agriculture, etc. And, in terms of the volume, it's really grown and expanded. So I think some estimates suggest that India provides something like over 6,000,000,000 in technical and financial cooperation on an annual basis.

[00:27:45] - [Speaker 1]
Now while that's that's quite small if you compare it with say with China, but in a sense it does provide India with a vehicle with which to position itself as a neutral credible development partner to countries as an alternative to China. Certainly that is the positioning that India has. And India also takes a unique approach to its development cooperation. So you know drawing on its own country as a colonized its own history as colonized country. India strongly draws on principles of self salt cooperation.

[00:28:16] - [Mandakini Surie]
The idea that it is about mutual benefit and that the relationship is one of between partners rather than a traditional donor aid recipient relationship. And again going back to the G20, the idea of a very foundational tenant of India's development cooperation is the idea of the world as one family. So what can India do to support and assist its partners and what can it draw on in terms of its own experience. And I think over a period of time there has been a shift from. I remember long time ago I was in a conference on development cooperation and this leading expert said India's approach to development cooperation has been about letting a million flowers bloom.

[00:28:56] - [Mandakini Surie]
Why do we need a policy or why do we need a concerted approach? Know, it's about being responsive to partners. I think that has really changed. And over the last decade or so, there's been a much more concerted effort to aligning India's development cooperation with its foreign policy goals and objectives. And you've seen this, for example, with the creation of a, you know, the development partnership administration within the ministry of, external affairs, which actually deals with issues around development cooperation.

[00:29:21] - [Mandakini Surie]
So much closer alignment of that and also expansion of the toolkit that India has. So soft power is now a big element of India's development cooperation. So if you go to any Indian mission website, you know, it's it talks a lot about what India is doing on conservation, art and restoration, yoga, the other ways in which soft power tools, the Buddhism, for example. So I think India now uses a much more expanded set of, tools that draw on its own areas of expertise as well as its culture and history to position itself as I said both as a trusted partner, a credible partner and also an alternative for countries that say may be wanting to look at other forms of assistance which are separate from the West or from China.

[00:30:02] - [Nirjan Rai]
One of the interesting thing that you mentioned, Manakini, is India positioning itself or India positioning its aid as a South South Corporation mutual benefit. This also happens to be the language that China uses for its aid. How would you differentiate, how India and and China are positioning themselves in this particular, language?

[00:30:26] - [Mandakini Surie]
So I think that's a really interesting question. And in many ways, think China has just by sheer heft and weight of its economy, it's the place it already occupies at the global stage. In many ways, I think China has a development narrative, which is also quite compelling. It's visible to see what China has been able to achieve, progress has been able to achieve. And also, I think the way in which has been able to very rapidly overcome some of its own development challenges and then use its own progress as a way to support development in other countries.

[00:31:05] - [Mandakini Surie]
I think India in many ways is slightly different in that sense because it is a country that provides development assistance but still developing country itself. So India today has many of the developing challenges around hunger, malnutrition, food security. All of those issues which you would a lot of countries in the developing South are still grappling with. So it's coming from it coming towards it from a different position. India also has the historical legacy of colonialism and it has that path dependency which it's aware of and is able to share that experience and relate to that experience.

[00:31:39] - [Mandakini Surie]
And in many ways, I think China and India have more in common sometimes than I think is acknowledged. I think they are both countries that see a real role for themselves on the global stage and have particular approaches to the way in which they describe all in which they see development cooperation. I mean, China for example is also committed to the SDGs. It also is committed to achieving these global goals. It also emphasizes the ideas of South South cooperation.

[00:32:06] - [Mandakini Surie]
So there are those foundational principles in place. I think, you know, it's easy to think of them as rivals, but I think there's actually there is a lot in common that is there as well.

[00:32:16] - [Nirjan Rai]
So, Mandakini, as we close the loop on this, discussion today on India's global aspirations, You mentioned earlier about India's neighborhood first policy and how that has not been very effective. Now do you think that this new opportunity, that India is positioning itself for gives that space for both India and for India's neighboring countries to engage with it?

[00:32:44] - [Mandakini Surie]
So I think I'll answer that question by reminding us of what India's G20 mantra is. One world, one family, one future. And I would think that that family, that future begins with your neighborhood. You know, India has a really unique opportunity with this G20 presidency to showcase its journey as you know, as a developing economy, its remarkable success in so many areas. It's, ability to be able to bring a lot of difficult issues to the table and its ability to champion a lot of issues whether its climate change or energy we have talked a lot about that.

[00:33:24] - [Mandakini Surie]
But I think you know for me where the rubber meets the road is really India's ability to walk the talk and as much as we you know the G20 presidency is focused around dialogue of diplomacy on kind of revitalizing this multilateralism. I think India needs to also look at its own region And as they say with great power comes great responsibility and I think it really is an opportunity for India to to take neighborhood first and actually try to find true dialogue or through mechanisms that it itself has articulated as options to the world currently to deal with some of the challenges to really try and find creative out of the box solutions. And I said it's about finding solutions in two ways. One is about, you know, what are those sticking points with particular countries on particular issues and not having those really hold out kind of hold up relations for decades to come. And I think building up that level of trust, it takes time but it's something that requires an investment.

[00:34:24] - [Mandakini Surie]
And I think India also needs to look at the region beyond the lens of China. China cannot be the main reason why India is engaging with its neighbors. This region has a history, a legacy which goes back centuries. Was one continent at one point. And how do you revive some of those conversations around culture, language, around travel, transit to make it easier for people to actually engage with one another.

[00:34:47] - [Mandakini Surie]
I mean, I think back in the day people to people connection was sort of the mantra for South South cooperation or South Asia regional cooperation and a lot of those conversations have died because they get held up by a lot of these as I said the practicalities of day to day engaging with some of these bilateral issues. So yeah, South Asia cannot be South Asia cannot be on India's agenda just because of China. South Asia needs to be on India's agenda because India is a part of South Asia and has historically been so. And as it assumes a G20 presidency, it has a unique opportunity to bring its neighbors and engage with its neighbors in these conversations and have them be part of that this global conversation around issues which actually going to impact South Asia pretty significantly. And I will end by saying that, you know, there's been a lot of criticism of the fact that of the countries in South Asia, Bangladesh perhaps is the only country that has been invited as a guest nation.

[00:35:46] - [Mandakini Surie]
I don't know the details around that, but certainly the optics of it have been critiqued. And I think there is a sense that I would hope going forward that India would look to find ways to engage with all of its neighbors in South Asia through the different G20 tracks and find ways for having meaningful conversations around these critical global public goods issues because India can't grow alone in South Asia. If South Asia is going to prosper, India is going to have to carry other have work with other countries in terms of carrying that conversation form and the onus is not just on India's neighbors it's equally on India.

[00:36:24] - [Nirjan Rai]
Well with that we come to the end of this conversation thank you so much Mandakani for sharing your insights. Thank you for finding the time to come to our studio for this recording.

[00:36:34] - [Mandakini Surie]
Thanks so much Nirjan. It's been an absolute pleasure to be speaking to you today.

[00:36:47] - [Nirjan Rai]
Thanks for listening to PODS by PEI. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Mandakini on India's global ambitions, its critical positioning in the various alliances that have been formed to counter the rise of China and what all this entails for its South Asian neighbors. Today's episode was produced by Saurav Lama with support from Kushi Hang and Chhedon Kansakar. The episode was recorded at PEI studio. Our theme music is courtesy of Rohit Shakya from Jindabad. If you liked today's episode please subscribe to our podcast.

[00:37:10] - [Nirjan Rai]
Also please do us a favor by sharing us on social media by leaving a review on Spotify, Apple Podcast, Google Podcast or wherever you listen to the show. For PEI's video related content please search for Policy Entrepreneurs on YouTube. To catch the latest from us on Nepal's policy and politics please follow us on twitter tweet2pei that's tweet followed by the number two and PEI and on facebook policy entrepreneurs inc You can also visit pei.center to learn more about us. Thanks once again from me Nirjan. Will see you soon in our next episode.