Hem Sagar on the Beauty of Birds and Bird Watching

[00:00:10] - [Speaker 0]
Namaste and welcome to Pods by PEI, a policy discussion series brought to you by Policy Entrepreneurs Inc. My name is Kushi Hang. In today's episode, we have PI colleague Dheeraj's conversation with Hemsagar Baral on the beauty of birds and birdwatching. Hemsagar Boral is an ornithologist with a PhD in bird ecology from the University of Amsterdam and has been involved in wildlife conservation for nearly three decades, popularizing public engagement and appreciation. He is the country director of the Zoological Society of London, Nepal, where he leads multiple wildlife conservation projects, charities, and research.

[00:00:47] - [Speaker 0]
In this episode, Dheeraj and Hemsabar explore the art of birdwatching and the immense opportunity for it in Nepal. The two then recount their experiences as avid bird watchers and observe changes, especially the declining population. They discuss urbanization and climate change as the main deterrents and consider what can be done to mitigate their effects to restore avian life and diversity. We hope you enjoy the conversation.

[00:01:15] - [Speaker 1]
Hi, M. Welcome to POTS by PEI. How are doing today?

[00:01:19] - [Speaker 2]
I'm good, Dheeraj. How are you? Oh, very good.

[00:01:22] - [Speaker 1]
Okay. So, M, to begin our conversation, let me ask the obvious question. How did you become involved in nature and conservation? And to be more specific with today's topic, what was it that drew you towards birds and bird watching in Nepal?

[00:01:39] - [Speaker 2]
Thank you, Dheeraj. Actually, you know, right from the beginning, I have developed some kind of passion for wildlife, not only birds, but the entire wildlife. And I was born in the East Nepal at the age of Koshitapu Wildlife Reserve. And right from my childhood, I could see lot of varieties of birds as well as a lot of mammals. And coming to birds in 1987, I got a job to work as a trainee naturalist in Chitung National Park.

[00:02:18] - [Speaker 2]
And at that time when I was working as a young trainee naturalist, nature guide, then I realized that there was a kind of dearth of knowledge. There was a lot of understanding needed to be developed for our Nepali birds. So I saw that clear niche for me to take up that area as my study. And, right from there, that point of time, I thought I'm going to take up this, subject and do more bird studies. That's how, you know, I really got into birds.

[00:02:58] - [Speaker 1]
So great. As you know, Nepal is indeed blessed by nature in so many regards. With birds, most of us are quite familiar with the daphy as it's the national bird Yes, of yeah. So many even have heard of the unique birds like spiny babbler. And personally, my favorites around Godavari would be red headed trogon, the long tailed broadbill and kutia.

[00:03:19] - [Speaker 1]
Perhaps you could tell a bit more about some of the most unique and beautiful birds of Nepal. Maybe some of your favorites as well.

[00:03:26] - [Speaker 2]
It's probably not really fair to, you know, to be partial to some species because as you know that we have something like eight ninety one species of birds in this country recorded over the last two hundred years. And there are a lot of special birds in Nepal. And I think a group of birds that is really special for Nepal, I would call the laughing thrushes. Because we have varieties of laughing thrushes. We have varieties of other species that belong to that family babblers, which always live in flocks and they have really interesting behavior.

[00:04:05] - [Speaker 2]
So I think those birds would be really, really special in the sense what Nepal is famous. But of course as you said there are other lots of colorful birds like long tailed broad bull, kutia, red headed trogon and things like that and they are absolutely you know they are when you see them you know it's a great joy to see those birds that you mentioned and personally there was a time that you know I was studying so much then I fell in love with a bird called ibisbill. So Ibisbill is a kind of unique and enigmatic Himalayan waiter that breathes in the glaciated valleys of the high mountains during summer. And in winter when it's cold, it winters in the foothills of the Himalayas where the river makes braided channels and river has shingle banks. So I think that is, that still is probably my more loved and a more liked bird than anything else.

[00:05:12] - [Speaker 1]
Talking about IBIS bill, I remember being engaged in some type of campaign to preserve their habitat. So how are they doing now?

[00:05:19] - [Speaker 2]
So basically, yes, we did, some, studies, some campaign, to, protect the wintering habitat of ibispils because where they winter, there's a lot of, gravel mining and sand mining, and that has really threatened the wintering habitat for IV spills. So the the status of IV spills is it's a nationally threatened within the country, but, you know, like IV spills, there are also many other species that have declined. Nearly 168 species that are on the list of threatened species list.

[00:05:57] - [Speaker 1]
So given your long experience in this sector, I'm sure you have many stories to tell. I know you worked with folks like Carolyn Scape, a local birding icon and the author of Nepal's most famous bird book, Birds of Nepal, and to which you are also a co author. You also assisted President Jimmy Carter, a keen bird watcher and a frequent visitor to Nepal. Can you tell us some of the most memorable birdwatching experiences you've had over the years?

[00:06:23] - [Speaker 2]
Thank you, Dheeraj. I think in the field, during those years, you know, I have had a lot of wonderful moments. And, usually, you know, we get, really excited when we see a new event. For example, something, that was not known to the birding or the ornithological, fraternities. So that those moments are very precious.

[00:06:52] - [Speaker 2]
When we find a new species, new record for Nepal, you know, those moments are very memorable and something very precious. So I can recall you know like finding a couple of species, two new species from Sukhla Patta within a week's time. So that I think was probably one of my most memorable event during my ornithological career. I was collecting data for my PhD and I chose to work in Suklafata National Park and there I found, one species called singing lark and the other species yellow weaver. Both new new species, never been recorded in Nepal.

[00:07:38] - [Speaker 2]
And, the latter species, the yellow weaver, was even globally threatened. It was endemic to India, a bird only found in India. So so I think those were really memorable events finding new species. Then of course, in 2016 I think I found this, together with other colleagues of course. A bird that was long thought to be extinct from this country for nearly one hundred and seventy years.

[00:08:08] - [Speaker 2]
It was thought to be extinct from this country, red faced leocitula. And that was, you know, we found that in an area that was quite well bird watched. There were a lot of other birders that had been there, stayed there, done some kind of exploration. And we were very, very thrilled that my goodness, you know, this small piece of jungle has this red faced leocitula thought to be extinct from Nepal. Hundred seventy years back was the last record.

[00:08:37] - [Speaker 2]
So those those moments were really, really precious and memorable and something I cherish. You know, there are many moments like that, Dheeraj, and I think we don't really don't have the time to explain some more. But I'll just add here that, Jimmy Carter, you mentioned, and, I had the most beautiful mornings, two beautiful mornings in full Cherokee taking him close to your place, your territory. So we had three, four hours birding and President Carter was and I could talk to him just like I'm talking to you. He was such a simple down to earth you know man, a very much a family man.

[00:09:24] - [Speaker 2]
So we talked about birth when we were in Fulczoki then our the long how do you say that, Morser Ghade was coming back to Salty and then he started talking about family. Said to him, How many children do you have and you know and then he started talking, I'm the proud grandpa I know and I have so many you know grandkids and things like that and then he took me to have breakfast and he said, him, what are you doing tomorrow morning? And I said, president Carter, I'm free. And he said, well, we really like the birding today. Can we go back tomorrow?

[00:10:06] - [Speaker 2]
So it it was a lovely experience.

[00:10:09] - [Speaker 1]
Any specific bird that he was interested in? Or

[00:10:12] - [Speaker 2]
No. No. He no. It was more in general. And but the thing was he remembered the name of the birds when I showed them, and he was genuinely interested.

[00:10:25] - [Speaker 2]
He was not there just to show that former American president is interested in birds but he was genuinely interested and even after he left the correspondence continued and he asked me the full bird list that, you know, he had been shown Uh-huh. In full jerky. So that was really nice.

[00:10:43] - [Speaker 1]
Very good. Very good. For the next set of questions, I'd like to begin with an observation that many of us who live in urban areas like Kathmandu have had. Where have all the birds gone? So for example, I remember the days when a host of sparrows was a common sight, but that's not the case anymore.

[00:11:00] - [Speaker 1]
Today, there seems to be a sharp decline in many of these common birds. So as an avid birder, what is your view on this phenomenon?

[00:11:08] - [Speaker 2]
I think that's a bit of worry, not only in Nepal. It's a global phenomenon, I think, that a lot of our births have declined. And what we need to note is the birds may be still there, but their population is not. So, there is a study done by WWF and my own organization that I work for, GSL, and they have produced a report called the Living Planet Index report where they have outlined from the seventies till now, we have lost nearly 70 to 80% populations of the wildlife. So, for example, what that says is if we used to see sparrows, for example, in February, just, you know, make it a 70% decline and, you know, count that number.

[00:12:06] - [Speaker 2]
That's what we see today. So that's really a worrying thing. And the house sparrow and tree sparrow that we have in Kathmandu Valley, those are only representative birds, but we have many other species declining, you know, in the urban setting as well as, of course, in their other habitats.

[00:12:28] - [Speaker 1]
Is there any specific in which why why the population is declining?

[00:12:34] - [Speaker 2]
Well, the biggest threat to birds has been, the loss of habitat. And then there are other threats which are directly impacting the population of the birds also. For example, hunting, trapping, killing, poisoning, those kind of things. And one thing that I must mention here is climate change. Climate change is affecting our birds in very

[00:13:02] - [Speaker 1]
Let me stop you there. We'll come to that as well. Okay. So there's another bird that I keenly wanted to discuss with you is the vulture. So this particular bird probably does not fit into what many would define as being a beautiful bird and even reviled for feeding on carcasses.

[00:13:19] - [Speaker 1]
Culturally, they are even considered as signs of ill omen. So can you tell me briefly the role of vultures in our ecosystem? What kinds of vultures are found in Nepal, and what is the reason behind the sharp decline in their population?

[00:13:33] - [Speaker 2]
So vulcers are one of the largest birds of prey in the world. And if you look at the species richness of Nepal, There is no other country in the world that has more species of vultures than Nepal. You know, Nepal has nine species of vultures, and there is only one other country that has that richness and that is India. But you know, India is much bigger than Nepal in geographic, in in the land coverage and things like that. So that richness we have in Nepal.

[00:14:12] - [Speaker 2]
And the Valsa numbers also were really in millions talking about pre eighties, pre nineties scenario. And the vulture numbers really flourished in especially in India and Nepal mainly because of the cultural practice that we have. Most people being Hindus and Hindus not eating cows. Cows formed the main diet for vultures and therefore that super abundant supply of food for vultures helped increase in a huge population of vultures in the Indian Subcontinent. And why they have declined?

[00:14:57] - [Speaker 2]
They have declined because in the late eighties, there was a drug that was introduced in Indian Subcontinent called diclofenac, which is a drug which comes under the non steroidal anti inflammatory drug category and that drug was slowly killing the bulges without conservationists noticing in the beginning and but of course when the numbers really fell down from, 99% decline for some of the species. So then conservationists notice it and then three years or four years of research found out that it was a drug that was killing our ulcers, decimating the entire population and really scary situation.

[00:15:46] - [Speaker 1]
On that note, since you're also involved in some of the conservation efforts, can you also tell us what is being done to protect these vultures?

[00:15:54] - [Speaker 2]
So, basically, you know, when the vultures were declining and the diclofenac was found as the culprit for that huge decline of vultures, Then, there were a lot of, different approaches taken for conservation. You know? One is the awareness, of course, awareness and education to the communities, you know, who are providing food to the ulcers. Then the second was we did not know whether the vultures would survive in the wild. We just keep on watching, keep on monitoring them, and eventually they may be they may be disappearing from the nature.

[00:16:31] - [Speaker 2]
Therefore, what we did was we captured some of the wireless stock, and we put them in captivity so that we can breed them in captivity and keep us, you know, stock just in case the entire population is wiped out from the nature. So that's what that was the second measure, you know, establishing conservation breeding center, as we say. And then, the third was, because there was diclofenac in the environment, we did research on safe alternative drug. What can be given as drug to the cows and that when the cows, in spite of being treated, if they die and the vultures feed on that body, what would be the safe alternative drug?

[00:17:16] - [Speaker 1]
Replacement. Replacement.

[00:17:18] - [Speaker 2]
And that research showed some of the drugs were safer to waltzes and we promoted those drugs. Actually, you know, what we did was we were swapping the stock of diclofenac in shops, us buying you know, we bought meloxicam, which is the safe alternative drug, and then we gave meloxicam to shopkeepers, and we took the diclofenac and we just destroyed diclofenac because the fear was that vultures would continue to decline. So those, you know, three or four measures were done. And, of course, setting up the vulture restaurant, you know, safe feeding site in Nawalaparas. Nawalaparas.

[00:17:59] - [Speaker 2]
Another in, conservation of vultures at that time.

[00:18:05] - [Speaker 1]
So so how is it doing now? The the vulture rehab program, how is it doing?

[00:18:11] - [Speaker 2]
So so basically, I must add here just, for clarification that how diclofenac was killing vultures. Okay? So diclofenac is a drug given to cow when they have diarrhea or some kind of pain. So it's basically a painkiller also, often mixed with acetamol. So once a cow is sick and if the drug is given, and in spite of that treatment, if the cow dies, then some traces of diclofenac is still there in the tissues of the dead cow.

[00:18:46] - [Speaker 2]
And when that tissue when that meat is eaten by vultures, then vultures ingest a lot of that meat, and the concentration of the diclofenac gets very high in their body system. Vulsars have kidney. They don't cope with diclofenac excretion. So they were not excreting diclofenac, rather accumulating diclofenac within their system, and that was resulting visceral gout in vultures, and therefore they were dying. So it was not direct poisoning to vultures.

[00:19:21] - [Speaker 2]
It was a kind of secondary poisoning. Okay. So that's how they were dying. So that's my clarification here. And then on your question, how they how the vultures are doing, I think we have now we think we have stabilized the remaining vulture population.

[00:19:39] - [Speaker 2]
They are still dying from other threats, but I think we have stabilized whatever the population is, but other threats are emerging.

[00:19:47] - [Speaker 1]
That's excellent. So are these vultures, rehabilitated into the wild?

[00:19:53] - [Speaker 2]
The conservation breeding center is closed now.

[00:19:56] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. It's already closed.

[00:19:56] - [Speaker 2]
It's already closed after so we set up this in 02/2008, and this was closed, this year. All the captive bred stock were released. They didn't perform the best, but most of them survived. Some died, but most of them survived. And, the conservation breeding center was closed because we thought our conservation efforts were showing positive signs in the wild.

[00:20:28] - [Speaker 3]
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[00:20:51] - [Speaker 3]
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[00:21:20] - [Speaker 3]
Now let's get back to the episode.

[00:21:31] - [Speaker 1]
So continuing on the topic of conservation, there are quite a number of efforts targeted at nature and conservation. When it comes to birds, what are some of the important initiatives that are in place in Nepal to protect them?

[00:21:44] - [Speaker 2]
I think, that's, again, a very important question, and, that will probably touch on the plans and policies, you know, we have. And, on that, I think the most important thing that that this country has done is, to have the National Parks and Wildlife Conservation Act 1973, and that is really the main law, main act that protects the entire wildlife in the country, including birds. And within that law, there are nine species of birds strictly protected also. And I think that is the biggest initiative that this country has done to conserve the birds. Then there are other plans and policies also.

[00:22:31] - [Speaker 2]
Within so within that act, we have followed some guidelines and we have produced some species action plans for threatened species. For example, Bengal fluorescent is very threatened species. So we have produced Bengal fluorescent action plan. We have produced vulture action plan. We have produced pheasant action plan.

[00:22:52] - [Speaker 2]
You know? So those are also guiding document for conservation. Then, the Bird Conservation Nepal, the oldest bird conservation organization in the country, they have produced a document called, important bird and biodiversity area, IBAs, they call it. In 02/1955 when they produced, it was 27 IBAs in Nepal, including Fulchoki as one of the IBAs. And now, there is another document coming, and, it is documenting 42 sites in Nepal as sites of international importance, very important for bird conservation.

[00:23:31] - [Speaker 2]
So I think these are the important documents and, policies in place for conservation of birds in Nepal.

[00:23:39] - [Speaker 1]
That's good to know. So I'm sure conservation efforts are not without the challenges. So can you speak to some of the obstacles that conservationists are facing in Nepal? And maybe provide a few examples how they are working to overcome these hurdles.

[00:23:57] - [Speaker 2]
There are a lot of hurdles of, you know, conservation, bird conservation. The main problem, I see is, you know, we have I mentioned about that act, which was promulgated in 1973. But at the same time, what happens is we have other acts and they conflict with this act. We have development act, we have acts in development sectors. There are other ministries which are very keen to develop roads, develop hydros, develop power lines, develop canals and huge airports, you know, large infrastructures.

[00:24:39] - [Speaker 2]
And and there is the conflict. So there is no integrated policy, you know, for development. An integrated policy would look after welfare of people and wildlife at the same time, and that is lacking. And that is probably the biggest hurdle that we have in the country for conservation of birds as well as other wildlife, environmental conservation as a whole.

[00:25:08] - [Speaker 1]
Right. So for my next question, I'd like to get to the topic of climate change now. Given the growing awareness of the far reaching effects of climate change on various aspects of the world, I think it is important to know and understand how it's affecting wildlife, particularly in vulnerable regions in Nepal. So are there any observable changes or patterns in the behavior Yeah. Distribution, or population of birds in Nepal that can be linked to climate change?

[00:25:37] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. Absolutely. Climate change is obviously something that's going on for a long time and the change that is brought by climate change is not specific to one species but it's the entire environment you know where we live and where also there is wildlife. And we have seen some changes in the behavior, in the distribution, in the status of different species. And now coming to birds, what we have seen is some of the species, for example, which are only found in the lowlands, lowland living species, now they are also being found slightly higher up in other valleys.

[00:26:24] - [Speaker 2]
For example, in Phokhara, you know, we have seen couple of species really growing up, their population really booming. Little cormorant, purple moorhen, and yellow bitten, you know, these kind of species just going up in the population. And similarly in Carfindre Valley also we are getting birds from the lowland. They are establishing well and they they are establishing well without us aiding them. And that's happening because we think because of the climate change.

[00:26:58] - [Speaker 2]
For example, the Greater Kukul is being more frequent here which used to be a rare thing here. And then we have once or twice we recorded thing like Aesoprenaia which is mainly a bird of the lowland. And that again has appeared a few times in Kathmandu Valley. So you know there there are visible changes in distribution, but also behavior, you know, behavioral changes. The way the amount of cuckoos that are arriving in Nepal is less.

[00:27:31] - [Speaker 2]
And I I guess cuckoos breeding is affected also because of the climate change because cuckoos are very much all the cuckoos feed and the caterpillars and things like that. And climate change is affecting the way the emergence of caterpillars, you know, from the egg. And that is the main food source for cuckoos. And if cuckoo's breeding and emergence of caterpillar doesn't coincide, that brings breeding hazard for the cuckoo, and their population may not go up, decline if the breeding is is unsuccessful. So, you know, these kind of changes we are already seeing.

[00:28:18] - [Speaker 2]
Some birds are benefiting from climate change. They can adapt, but those birds have very little. Small number of species, only they can be more adaptable. But whereas other species, most other species, because they require their specific habitat and the food they depend on, it is very difficult for them to cope. You know, for example, house crows.

[00:28:44] - [Speaker 2]
You know, they will cope fantastically, you know, even in the event of climate change.

[00:28:49] - [Speaker 1]
Right. So has this been affecting migratory birds, like, coming in from Siberia?

[00:28:56] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. I think that is quite an important aspect effect of climate change and migratory birds, their migration route, the timing of coming and going, you know, for migratory birds that's been, you know, being affected. Some birds are reluctant to go back now, you know, so they so they have decided to stay. And, also the the length of migration they used to do, that is changing rapidly. Before they used to perform long, long migration.

[00:29:29] - [Speaker 2]
Some of the species, you know, and this this these are most of the studies. The knowledge that I'm sharing with you are done not only in Nepal. Actually, very few studies done in Nepal. Mostly, the study is done outside Nepal with the latest technology available and long term data. So, definitely, climate change has had a huge impact on migratory birds.

[00:29:55] - [Speaker 1]
So, looking ahead, as birds are an integral part of Nepal's biodiversity, it is important to consider how their significance and role in their environment will be understood and valued in the coming years. So I'd like to hear your thoughts on how you foresee the attitudes and perceptions towards birds evolving in Nepal. Additionally, what measures do you think could be taken to promote a deeper appreciation and protection of birds among the general public?

[00:30:23] - [Speaker 2]
I think that is the, you know, main crux of the conservation that we are doing, Adiras, because, you know, unless and until everyone in this country understands the value of birds and biodiversity. Conservation of biodiversity con you know, environmental conservation is going to be a, you know, a battle that is more or less losing battle. But the good thing is we have new generation coming and the new generation is really smart. They are very keen to promote conservation of birds and other wildlife. So that is really the biggest hope that we have.

[00:31:06] - [Speaker 2]
You know, new generation understands and they have, for the awareness and education, they have been using various means that are available now that were not available say fifteen years ago. So that is really the hope that we have but the fore and foremost thing that we need to do is to ensure that public understands to appreciate what we have. You know my dream is that every house in Nepal I don't know when that will be. If I visit they can talk about say fifteen, twenty birds. Maybe they have a pair of binoculars in the house.

[00:31:52] - [Speaker 2]
Nice. Nice. Yeah. So you know I think that that is so important because when I started doing birds bird watching I was told by the foreigners the beauty that we have. It should not be that.

[00:32:08] - [Speaker 2]
It should be our people, Nepali people telling our Nepali people as well as our foreigner friends the beauty we have, the birds we have, the diversity we have. So I think that public appreciation of birds, biodiversity is the most important thing, and that is the basic thing that we need to start.

[00:32:30] - [Speaker 1]
Beautiful. So how about bird watching and tourism? I know that there are some interest in this regard, but this remains clearly a niche market. And do you think there is possibility of expanding this so that Nepal becomes a destination for bird watches or bird photography?

[00:32:47] - [Speaker 2]
Yes. I think there is a huge scope in Nepal for bird watching and bird photography promoting, you know, both. But what we have to remember is we we need to be very clever how we promote our country as the bird watching destination because we don't have the luxury of having so many endemic birds like for example Sri Lanka has. You know they have more than 40 species endemic to Sri Lanka. So people have to go to Sri Lanka to see those 40 species.

[00:33:19] - [Speaker 2]
Right. Whereas we just have one endemic species and that is also not easy to see. You know, spinae baba. Spinae baba. Yeah.

[00:33:27] - [Speaker 2]
So we need to be very careful how we promote this country as a bird watching destination. We cannot be promoting an Indemism, you know, because we have very little Indemism in the country, you know, landlocked and sharing similar geographical habitats with India and China. We are lucky that we have one endemic bird species because if you go to Pakistan, they don't have one. So I think the way we can promote bird watching and bird photography, as you said, is, look, we have 891 species. You come here.

[00:34:04] - [Speaker 2]
What we can show you in two weeks time, if you come on the right time of the year and you you went to the right places, you can see half of them. So that's how we can promote. For example Indonesia has nearly 2,000 species for example but to see that 2,000 maybe to see 400 you'll probably have to spend four weeks there But here to see 400, you can do it in two weeks. I think that's how we can promote, bird watching. I mean, Nepal is a bird watching destination.

[00:34:39] - [Speaker 2]
But, again, everything is linked to conservation. We must conserve the birds so that we can promote bird watching tourism.

[00:34:48] - [Speaker 1]
That's very insightful. Thank you so much. So finally, for anyone who may be interested in getting into bird watching and bird photography, what are some of the ways they can get involved? Are there any particular bird watching hotspots in Nepal that you would recommend? Would even be some of your favorite hotspots?

[00:35:08] - [Speaker 2]
Yes. There are a lot of destinations. Yeah. Obviously within the valley think Guadalupe Fulcirque is my favorite and that's why I took President Carter two times there. So that's a fantastic, it's such a fantastic place for forest birding.

[00:35:25] - [Speaker 2]
It's a very rare, rare, habitat there and one can see so many varieties especially of laughing thrusses. I love laughing thrusses, you know seeing laughing thrusses there. And then of course, you know, we have so many other places like easy birding, Kochitapu, Chitwan, Sukhla Phanta, even Lumbini, Pokhara, you know, really, really nice bardia, very easy birding. And if you are to trekking and that kind of thing, then we have Langtang, Anupurna, Makalubarum, Sagarmatha, Kanchanjanga, Rara, you know, all these trek areas. These are the hottest spots for birding.

[00:36:05] - [Speaker 2]
Usually, you know, the important bird in biodiversity area, as I said, there are 42 of them in Nepal. They are the best for birding destination. So they they're really good. And bird photography goes the same, but to photographers, I would like to also request a caution that we need to be careful photographing birds, especially when they are breeding and not to disturb too much because there is a good growth of bird photographers in this country as you know also and, which is very good, but we need to follow certain ethics and code of conduct doing bird watching and bird photography.

[00:36:46] - [Speaker 1]
That's very insightful. So Hem, now we've come to the end of today's conversation. But before I let you go, I do want to let our listeners know that your expertise on nature and conservation in Nepal goes beyond just birds. So I recently heard from a mutual friend, Mahindra, that you actually published a book on tigers in Nepal. I'd love to bring you back to talk about this topic.

[00:37:09] - [Speaker 1]
But for now, could you tell us about your book, Pathe Bagh, and why we wrote about it?

[00:37:15] - [Speaker 2]
That's interesting, Dheeraj. Because, you know, I mean, my core subject expertise is birds, but I wanted to diversify my own, expertise. So I started writing, studying mammals and plants and even reptiles actually. So during that course, I wrote together with other authors books on snow leopards, books on pangolins, even book papers and plans actually. And with the tiger book, the organization that I work and there are other organization which are working on tigers.

[00:37:57] - [Speaker 2]
And we have invested huge amount of resources on tigers. And if you look at tiger papers, scientific papers, there are plenty. And if you look at tiger books in English, there are plenty. But look, know I wanted to find out one Nepali, one book on Tiger in Nepali language and there is none. So I thought my goodness there is a gap there.

[00:38:23] - [Speaker 2]
If we don't make our people understand the importance of tiger, the behavior, the distribution, the status of tigers, our people, the local people in our language, then who will? And then I decided, okay, I'm going to do it. It took, you know, I had a full time job. It took three years to complete that small book. But I think that's very important book written in a very simple language for even layman to understand.

[00:38:54] - [Speaker 2]
So that's how Pattabak came into being.

[00:38:57] - [Speaker 1]
Okay. I think I I would want a signed copy from you.

[00:39:00] - [Speaker 2]
Okay. Okay. That's a

[00:39:01] - [Speaker 1]
deal. Nice. So any final words to our listeners before we call it a wrap?

[00:39:07] - [Speaker 2]
You know, bird watching is is not only done by scientists like me. Bird watching is a kind of I think everybody should be a birder in my view. Bird watching takes you to forest, takes you to wetlands, takes you to natural habitats. And that is in today's world when we are so much disturbed, so much busy, know our mind, we need peace of mind. And bird watching is rather a mental therapy for us.

[00:39:48] - [Speaker 2]
Mental peace we gain. Bird watching, know birds have been associated with us for a long time. And everyone please let's be a bird watcher for our own sake, for our own peace. And I think that will help for the conservation of birds as well as make people healthy. So that is my final message.

[00:40:15] - [Speaker 1]
Great. So him, thank you once again for joining us in the studio. And I look forward to yet another chat with you in the future.

[00:40:22] - [Speaker 2]
Thank you, Dheeraj, for giving me this wonderful opportunity, wonderful platform to speak about births. Thank you so much. Thank you.

[00:40:30] - [Speaker 0]
Thanks for listening to Pods by PEI. I hope you enjoyed Thiraj's conversation with Hem Sagar on the beauty of birds and bird watching. Today's episode was produced by Nirjan Rai with support from Saurabhlama, Chedon Kansakar, Hidesh Sab Khota, me, Kushihank. The episode was recorded at PI Studio and was edited by Hidesh Sapkota. Our theme music is the courtesy of Floyd Sakya from Zindabad.

[00:40:54] - [Speaker 0]
If you liked today's episode, please subscribe to our podcast. Also, please do us a favor by sharing us on social media and leaving a review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. For PEI's video related content, please search for policy entrepreneurs on YouTube. To catch the latest from us on Nepal's policy and politics, please follow us on Twitter tweet2pei, and on Facebook policy entrepreneurs inc. You can also visit pei.

[00:41:26] - [Speaker 0]
Center to learn more about us. Thanks again from me, Kushi. We will see you soon in our next episode.