Conversations: Ambassador Ranjit Rae on How to Reset India-Nepal Ties - Part One

[00:00:00] - [Speaker 0]
Namaste and welcome to Parts by PEI, a policy discussion series brought to you by Policy Entrepreneurs Inc. My name is Kushi Han. In today's episode, which is the first of a two part series, we have Anurag Acharya, Director of Practice at PEI, in conversation with Ambassador Ranjit Ray. Ambassador Ray is a retired Indian diplomat. During his tenure of over thirty years in the Indian Foreign Service, he held various positions including the Ambassador of India to Vietnam and Hungary, the first secretary of the permanent mission of India to the United Nations in New York, and the head of the Northern Division in the Ministry of External Affairs dealing with Nepal and Bhutan.

[00:00:38] - [Speaker 0]
From 2013 to 2017, Ambassador Ray served as the Indian ambassador to Nepal. During these years, Nepal witnessed some historic events including the promulgation of a new constitution and the earthquake of twenty fifteen. This was also a tumultuous period in the Nepal India relationship, about which Ambassador Ray has discussed extensively in his recent book, Kathmandu Dilemma? Resetting India Nepal Ties. In today's episode, Anurag begins the conversation by asking Ambassador Ray to reflect on his tenure in the Indian Foreign Service and to highlight any specific experiences that helped shape his worldview as a diplomat.

[00:01:14] - [Speaker 0]
The two also discussed the nuances of India's foreign policy tenets, especially with regard to Nepal and what it means to be posted in Kathmandu. They also examined India's multifaceted role in Nepal as a friendly neighbor, a long standing development partner, and an emerging power with strong geopolitical interests. We hope you enjoy the conversation.

[00:01:38] - [Speaker 1]
Welcome to the conversation, Ambassador Ray. Let's begin from the beginning. You graduated from Delhi School of Economics before joining Indian Foreign Services, which is one of the most competitive institution in India in terms of career choices. Was it something that you always wanted to do?

[00:01:56] - [Speaker 2]
Well, not really. My background was in economics. And immediately after finishing my post graduation, I got a job at St. Stephen's College, so I was teaching. But in those days, there were not too many options for people like me.

[00:02:10] - [Speaker 2]
You could either go into the private sector or join the government or go into academics. And I was keen on academics, but studying in The US was quite expensive. And like most of my colleagues, I also gave the UPSC exams. You know, these are the competitive exams that you referred to and got into the Foreign Service.

[00:02:30] - [Speaker 1]
Well, that seems to be quite common in this part of the world, isn't it? But there must there must have been quite a few stumbling blocks as well. But what motivated you to continue to, aspire for joining the Foreign Service?

[00:02:42] - [Speaker 2]
Well, to tell you truthfully, I was not so happy when I got the Indian Foreign Service because we have two major services, one is the Foreign Service and the other is the Indian Administrative Service, which is the civil service, home civil service. And in the home civil service, my sense was that you could do much more for the country and especially in tangible terms, you you could improve the lives of the people. Whereas the Foreign Service was something quite remote and the benefits are intangible. You know, you don't really see the outcome of your efforts immediately. So when I got into the Foreign Service, I actually want to change to the administrative service, but that wasn't allowed by our authorities, so it was the Indian Foreign Service for me.

[00:03:29] - [Speaker 2]
And in retrospect, I must say it's been a very enriching, very rewarding career, something I've greatly enjoyed. And I now understand that you can really contribute very substantially to national interest, you know, to the goals of your country.

[00:03:47] - [Speaker 1]
Well, that's that's quite an interesting thing that you say that it wasn't your first choice career choice because you've you've obviously had a very illustrious and and long career during which you were posted around the world, including in Vietnam, Hungary, as well as UN missions to Kosovo and New York, to name a few. You also headed the North Division that looks at Nepal and Bhutan for quite some time. And of course, then your final assignment was in Nepal as an ambassador. Can you share some of your experiences that have motivated or shaped you as a diplomat?

[00:04:27] - [Speaker 2]
Well, my earliest experiences were really with multilateral diplomacy. You know, my first posting was in Vienna, Austria. And believe it or not, that was the first time I had traveled in a plane, and that was the first time that I went to Europe. So it was really a mind boggling experience. Just imagine somebody from Delhi who's never been abroad and suddenly at a young age you're in Europe.

[00:04:52] - [Speaker 2]
Fascinating experience. And there in Vienna, have a lot of United Nations organizations. So our ambassador made me his assistant and I really got a glimpse into the world of multilateral diplomacy and I realized that one thing a diplomat must have is patience because you have over a 100 countries negotiating and it's not easy. And the other thing I realized is that you have to negotiate, you have to discuss, you have to use your power of logic, rational thinking, reasoning in order to forge some sort of agreement or compromise. So I think it was a very good learning experience.

[00:05:32] - [Speaker 2]
And my second posting, I was a second secretary, was in Uganda in Africa, which is a very different country. Very unstable at that time, lot of civil disturbances. And I remember we had to evacuate the Indian community from Uganda because of the civil war. And I was the acting high commissioner of the commission at that time. So there I realized how important the Indian diaspora is.

[00:05:58] - [Speaker 2]
So, you know, these were some of my sort of very early learning experiences. Of course, Nepal came much later in my career, but possibly the most fascinating time of my career, I would say.

[00:06:10] - [Speaker 1]
Talking about Nepal, whenever a new ambassador is posted to Nepal, there's a lot of media attention and speculation about the background and the experience that the person brings. But tell us what does the job Nepal job mean within the Indian foreign policy establishment?

[00:06:30] - [Speaker 2]
So within the foreign policy establishment, it's probably, I think, one of our most important assignments. You know, I think neighborhood, you know, the countries of our neighborhood are perhaps the most critical because in today's globalized world, in today's interdependent world, no country is an island and the only way you can grow together, the only way you can emerge as a power is if you carry your neighbors along. And so the neighborhood is extremely very, very important, I would say. I was also a staff officer to a foreign secretary and from my experience almost 80 to 90% of the time of the foreign secretary was taken by the neighborhood. And equally for our leadership, the political leadership of the country, I think neighborhood is really the most important.

[00:07:25] - [Speaker 2]
So very, very important aspect of foreign policy of of any country, I would say. And at a personal level, I think, you know, because I had been joint secretary heading the division dealing with Nepal, you know, I was familiar with Nepal and, you know, I really love this country, the people, you know, the the great diversity of Nepal, the mountains. So both at a professional and a personal level, it was a fascinating experience.

[00:07:56] - [Speaker 1]
Well, talking about the history and legacy, there's, of course, a lot of that in the bilateral ties between Nepal and India, isn't it? And then to go back at least to those that that go at least back to medieval times, if not more. And and then, during the modern times, we've seen leaders and governments on both sides standing shoulder to shoulder with each other during the freedom as well as, democratic movements. Does it overwhelm or burden or challenge a diplomat coming to Nepal? What were your feelings when you first arrived over here?

[00:08:34] - [Speaker 2]
Well, I I was very excited. You know, for me, this was a dream posting. And as I said, it's unlike any other posting. And you have many diverse channels of communication between India and Nepal. There are familial ties, you know, ties of kinship.

[00:08:51] - [Speaker 2]
There is, of course, the official channel. There is the cooperation between our security and border guarding forces, the business communities, the relationship with the neighboring states. So it's a very diverse relationship and many channels. So it's perhaps also one of our most complex relationships because of some of the history that you mentioned. So it's really very challenging and, you know, how how you reconcile, you know, the objectives of all the actors and players in this relationship, and sometimes there may be differences, is pretty challenging and hence, so much more interesting.

[00:09:33] - [Speaker 1]
Bilateral ties, of course, evolved with new realities, but we also talk about, you know, continuity in foreign policy. And and when we talk about, India Nepal, relationship, what are some of the unique policy priorities or or asks of government of India for Nepal job that have remained, unchanged or unwavering over the years compared to some others that are quite flexible in that regard?

[00:10:01] - [Speaker 2]
Well, I think two fundamental priorities of the Government of India and Nepal, and I dare say in the entire neighborhood, the first relates to development cooperation. You know, I think we realize very much that India cannot grow until we have a peaceful and secure neighborhood and until this neighborhood is integrated in economic terms. I think that's a fundamental priority. And the second priority, I think, relates to security and especially with countries like Nepal and Bhutan with whom we have open borders, I think both sides have to be very sensitive to the security concerns because our territories can be used for purposes that are inimical to the interests of one or the other country or perhaps even of both countries. So the security dimension is also very important.

[00:10:49] - [Speaker 2]
So I would say that these two priorities remain constant. Historically, I don't think there's any change in these priorities, And and I dare say that is the case today as well.

[00:11:02] - [Speaker 1]
And what are some of the others that are quite flexible or or evolving in that regard?

[00:11:08] - [Speaker 2]
So, you know, I tend to focus more on the strategic interests and what I referred to earlier were the strategic priorities. But, you know, there would be from time to time, there would be short term issues that need to be resolved or discussed. And, you know, there may be positions that the two governments take depending on the short term objectives. But I think that we must always keep in mind our longer term strategic vision, which is often interdependent, integrated, common economic space where every country in our region can exploit its comparative advantage to the full, and every country benefits from this cooperation.

[00:11:50] - [Speaker 1]
As I've mentioned earlier, Indian ambassadors arriving in Kathmandu are seen to be wielding, you know, quite a significant influence compared to, you know, other, you know, foreign invoice or ambassadors to an extent that, they are sometimes blamed for meddling or micromanaging. You've been at the receiving end of this, as well. How fair is this, image projection, or is it a slight exaggeration?

[00:12:17] - [Speaker 2]
So this is a very difficult issue. You know, you referred to the fact that leaders of our two countries have supported each other in their freedom movements. And, you know, I would also say that India has been, in one way or the other, associated with all the seminal changes that have taken place in Nepal, you know, from the end of the Rana autocracy to the end of the Panchayat years and the ushering in of multi party democracy and constitutional monarchy, then to the days of the peace process and the establishment of a republic, the Andolans in the Tarai, the Madhesi Andolans. So India has been in some way or the or the other associated with all these developments. And I dare say that if you look back historically, I think India has been on the side of the aspirations of the people.

[00:13:14] - [Speaker 2]
India has been on the side of a progressive democracy, a more inclusive democracy in Nepal. And I think in this process, the ruling elites of the day naturally get riled. For instance, you know, when Pandit Nehru had criticized the the abolition of multi party democracy in 1960, It was projected in Nepal as being against Nepal, which was really not the case. It was against the decision of the monarch. And, you know, there was this feeling of sort of anti India nationalism that emerged from that whole episode.

[00:13:58] - [Speaker 2]
So if you look at India's stance in any of these seminal developments, so the ruling elites perhaps have not been very happy with India's position or India's role of the time. And so there's always been this sentiment in Nepal that India is micromanaging. So I don't know whether it's micromanaging or intervention at a more strategic level, but I think overall in our perception, we feel that we have supported progressive democratic change, inclusive democratic change in Nepal. The other point I do want to mention is that, you know, this micromanagement is not a one way street. You can micromanage if if both sides are agreeable.

[00:14:49] - [Speaker 2]
And in my book, I've referred to certain instances where your, perhaps, advice or opinion is sought, And this is in very genuine terms. It happens in many many countries. Leadership is a very lonely office and leaders are very lonely people. They don't really talk to too many people. So if you develop a relationship of mutual trust at a high enough level, you tend to discuss issues that would otherwise seem to be internal matters and so on.

[00:15:27] - [Speaker 2]
And I think this has always been in a friendly way. And the third point I want to say is that it also depends so much on the personality of the individual, the personality of the ambassador. So not every ambassador is the same. But from my perspective, my exhortation to all my colleagues was always to be very sensitive to Nepal, to the fact that the relationship between our two countries is asymmetric. So my advice to my officers was always to be very respectful, very mindful of Nepalese sensitivities in dealing with our Nepalese counterparts.

[00:16:05] - [Speaker 1]
But did the image that was projected in the media or in the civil society, did it bother you or did it make you defensive as as a diplomat?

[00:16:15] - [Speaker 2]
Well, it certainly bothered me. I don't think it made me defensive, but it certainly bothered me. And, you know, I believe in responding directly. So I don't like to sweep things under the carpet. And if if you see in my tenure, gave a lot of interviews, a lot of television debates and discussions.

[00:16:34] - [Speaker 2]
I faced a pretty difficult questioning also from time to time, especially in 02/2015, which was a very difficult time in Nepal. So I think it's best to discuss issues in an open and transparent manner, and it's important for both sides to present their position. So I presented the position as we saw it and I think that was appreciated and respected by by the Nepalese people.

[00:17:08] - [Speaker 0]
You have been listening to Pods by PEI. I am Kushi Han. This is a quick reminder to all of you to do us a favor by sharing us on social media and leaving a review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Now let's get back to the conversation between Anurag and Ambassador Ray.

[00:17:33] - [Speaker 1]
Ambassador Ray, when we talk about Nepal India ties, we always tend to focus more on the political side, the geopolitics, the treaties, and the controversies about which we will discuss more later in the conversation. But tell us more about India's role in Nepal as a closest neighbor and as a long standing development partner, which often remains understated in public discourse, at least on on our side.

[00:18:00] - [Speaker 2]
So I believe that we have to anchor our relationship on the economic partnership, on the development partnership between our two countries. I think that is fundamental to establishing good political relations as well. You know, we have enormous civilizational ties, huge historical relationships, but I think going into the future, this is the fundamental aspect that we have to strengthen. And I've already referred to developing this common integrated market. So the way I look at it, my vision for the future is that we must have excellent connectivity, whether it is land connectivity, railway connectivity, waterways, digital, integrated check posts.

[00:18:49] - [Speaker 2]
So we are thereby creating the infrastructure where you can have seamless movement of goods and people and it will benefit both countries, one. Secondly, Nepal's comparative advantage is in the field of water, the water resources. And, you know, 50% of the water flows in the river Ganga at Farakka come from rivers in Nepal. So you can imagine how this is like an umbilical cord that ties India to Nepal. And this is Nepal's comparative advantage, how to utilize this water for the benefit of Nepal and for the benefit of India, for mutual benefit, whether it is through hydropower, whether it is through flood control measures, whether it is through irrigation, whether it is drinking water.

[00:19:42] - [Speaker 2]
So I think this is this huge untapped potential, and I'm very happy to say that in recent years, and especially in recent months, huge strides have been made to strengthen and develop hydropower cooperation between our two countries. We have Indian public sector companies that are engaged in more than 3,200 MW of hydropower generation. We have a government to government hydropower project, the Pancheshwar project, which is more than 5,000 megawatts. Together, these projects represent investments of over 10,000,000,000 US dollars. So you can imagine the kind of investment that is going to be injected into the Nepalese economy.

[00:20:25] - [Speaker 2]
So I am very bullish on this and we have a vision statement on energy cooperation and we are also implementing what we have agreed. So Nepal is now exporting electricity to India on the spot market and generating huge revenues during the rainy season. So I feel very bullish about this kind of development cooperation, economic cooperation between our two countries. And the last aspect, of course, is that India has been very closely associated since the time of the Rana, know, since the time that Rana autocracy ended in the development of infrastructure, whether it is roads and highways or airports in the country, if you look at some of the hospitals, the educational institutions, so India has been a very major partner for Nepal during the earthquake, you know, renovation of schools and houses. So India is very proud and privileged to be a strong development partner of Nepal.

[00:21:29] - [Speaker 2]
And I think this aspect of the relationship will continue. The small development projects that we are doing virtually in every district Of Nepal. At the grassroots level also, are reaching the people and they can see for themselves this development cooperation between our two countries. So I feel this partnership, unfortunately, is not publicized enough. People are not aware of the media space and the television sort of coverage relates to the political more contentious, more difficult issues, sometimes ignoring the sort of real nuts and bolts, the meat of the relationship.

[00:22:13] - [Speaker 1]
Well, that was my next question to you. I mean, you've you've mentioned so many facets of this relationship, and and we do know that, you know, there is some tendency to underappreciate this, you know, side of the relationship, at least on our side. But tell us, is there that tendency also in the Indian side, especially among the sections of the foreign policy establishment in India, which focuses more on the securitized aspect of this relationship?

[00:22:40] - [Speaker 2]
Well, I I dare say, yes. You know, the securitized aspects of the relationship certainly gain more attention because, you know, these are more dramatic developments, more immediate, whereas the economic partnership is long term. But I think as far as the government of India is concerned, economic diplomacy is now a very central pillar of our cooperation, especially in the neighborhood. And this I'm referring not only to bilateral cooperation, but also at the regional level, you know, at the BBIN level, which is Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Nepal cooperation. So this is certainly getting lot more attention nowadays.

[00:23:24] - [Speaker 1]
Well, I'll also give you an example. In 02/2015, when the earthquake struck in Nepal, India was swift in its response and and was among the first to arrive here with its aid and and relief material. Numerous other times, it has been, you know, immediate in its response, especially when the floods have occurred in in Tharai. And there have been other recurring disasters in other parts of Nepal. And that's also funded important development initiatives, as you've already mentioned that.

[00:23:57] - [Speaker 1]
You've also talked about this at length in your book, Kathmandu Dilemma Resetting India Nepal Ties. We've seen countries like China and United States investing significantly in their public diplomacy, talking about this development partnership and other various facets of bilateral relationships. Do you think India is missing the bus over here by focusing more on the nuanced historical aspect of this relationship that we talk about, Rhotibeti narrative, which are very, very important, of course. But also, is it disregarding other critical mass and stakeholder groups in Nepal in its engagement by entirely putting the onus on interactions between the people of Simanchal area, the Madhisi people?

[00:24:50] - [Speaker 2]
You know, it's a very interesting question. During the earthquake, our first planes carrying assistance arrived six hours after the earthquake, and India was the largest partner and I think our overall assistance was over 65,000,000 US dollars and then we pledged a billion US dollars for reconstruction. So, you know, we I think India, it's not only the government, but the people of India also opened their hearts and minds and contributed to this relief effort in Nepal. And, you know, our sense was that, you know, we acted in such a way that, you know, it's close and friendly neighbor which has been badly affected, so it's only natural that we should go out and help. And, of course, you know, some of the developments in that period and some of the media criticism that we faced was a little unfair, I think.

[00:25:51] - [Speaker 2]
And I refer to it in my my book that people in Delhi were quite surprised when we saw some of the reactions that the Indian Army has come in, it will not go back, the Indians have taken over Tribhuvan Airport, or India is supplying substandard relief material. So people back home just couldn't understand where this was coming from. And in my book, I've explained in great detail as to the complexities of this relationship. But coming back to your point, are we focusing too much on Roti Beti and Simanchal relationships? I don't think so.

[00:26:28] - [Speaker 2]
I think, you know, this Roti Beti is a very ancient old relationship even before, you know, modern nation states developed. So it's a very fundamental aspect. I mean, is a unique aspect of the relationship and it's not only Seema Anchal, it's also Kathmandu Valley with India. So many families from here are married into Indian families, so that's certainly very important. But I said earlier, it is we have to anchor our relationship in the future on the development cooperation.

[00:27:03] - [Speaker 2]
We have to create a situation where every neighbor of ours benefits from the India growth story. I think this is the challenge and this is what we have to achieve through our multiple connectivity and other initiatives. And in terms of engaging, in terms of public diplomacy, it's you know, India is engaged with all sections of opinion and and and society. And, you know, I think we need to do much more, and especially in terms of reaching out to the youth. Both our countries are young countries.

[00:27:44] - [Speaker 2]
We have new leaders, younger parliamentarians, people who don't have the kind of relationship that politicians of the two countries had, say, fifty or sixty years ago. We have new generations of politicians in both countries, new aspirations, the world is more globalized, new opportunities. So I think we have to make much more effort to reach out to an entire cross section of the political leadership, the youth leadership, the civil society organizations, media, youth organizations. I think it's not that we are doing less, but I think we need to do more.

[00:28:24] - [Speaker 1]
Point taken there. Besides being a close and friendly neighbor to Nepal, India is, of course, a rising power in the region, which has, you know, deep geopolitical interest in the region as well. It has been a hard negotiator when it comes down to its own interests. We've seen that lately on the matters of cross border energy trade, not just with Nepal, but also between Nepal, India, and Bangladesh. How challenging is it for an Indian diplomat engaging in Nepal to manage both aspects of the job?

[00:28:57] - [Speaker 1]
Personally, have you faced a dilemma or contradicted your own approaches and actions while trying to meet the double ask of the job?

[00:29:06] - [Speaker 2]
Well, you know, it's you have to place the India Nepal relationship within the context of India's overall foreign policy or even the overall neighborhood policy. And as I said, connectivity, integration is a fundamental aspect of our overall neighborhood policy, and so energy becomes so important. Now if you look at our BBIN region, India is exporting energy to Bangladesh. India is importing energy from Bhutan. India is buying and selling energy to and from Nepal.

[00:29:48] - [Speaker 2]
And transmission lines exist between each of these countries and India. So you already have the key elements of a subregional energy market. Now the only thing that you have to do is develop these guidelines and the procedures, and you will have the subregional market. So I don't think the day is very far when Nepal will sell to Bangladesh through India, when Bhutan will sell to Bangladesh through Indian transmission lines and we should facilitate this process because see our overall goal is a common integrated economic space in this region. So if our countries are tied in economically through hydropower, I think some of the political issues in the relationship will also get resolved.

[00:30:38] - [Speaker 2]
So this is the strategic vision. But sometimes what happens is in the process of developing all these guidelines and things, some difficulties arise. For instance, historically, our view has been that we want to deal only bilaterally. With Bangladesh, we'll deal bilaterally. With Nepal, we'll deal bilaterally.

[00:30:58] - [Speaker 2]
We won't deal with the four countries together because the other three might then join up against our interests. So that kind of mentality or thinking is old thing. And I think that is changing. That has changed because we see that the strategic vision is a common economic space. So it is good for India if Nepal and Bangladesh are trading through India because it is tying in the economies of these countries.

[00:31:25] - [Speaker 2]
So this is where sometimes you have these dilemmas but it's a work in progress. You're constantly talking, discussing with the concerned actors, with the concerned ministries. And on our global aspirations, I think it's very important to have good neighborly relations in order to achieve your global aspirations. If your neighborhood is unstable, if your neighborhood is in difficulty, I think that is your priority before you can think about global aspirations. So I think even to achieve your global aspirations, your neighborhood policy is critical.

[00:32:05] - [Speaker 1]
Thank you, Ambassador Ray, for that conversation. With this, we come to the end of the first episode of this conversation. We will continue this conversation in the next episode.

[00:32:19] - [Speaker 0]
Thanks for listening to Pods by PEI. I hope you enjoyed today's conversation between Anurag and Ambassador Ray on India's evolving role in Nepal and the reshaping of the bilateral relationship between the two countries. Please do not forget to listen in to the second half of the conversation next week where Anurag gets Ambassador Ri to discuss details about his engagement with Nepal and its messy politics as well as his proposition on how to reset Nepal India ties. Today's episode is a part of PEI series on managing India, China and The US in a new world order. It was produced by Nizhun Rai with support from Saurabh Lama.

[00:32:55] - [Speaker 0]
The episode was recorded at Mint Studio and edited by Saurabh Lama. Our theme music is courtesy of Sanjay Sresto from nineteen seventy four AD. If you like today's episode please subscribe to our podcast. Also please do us a favor by sharing us on social media and leaving a review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever it is that you listen to the show. For PEI's video related content please search for policy entrepreneurs on YouTube.

[00:33:25] - [Speaker 0]
To catch the latest from us on Nepal's policy and politics please follow us on Twitter tweet2pei. That's T W E E T followed by the number two and PEI. And on Facebook policyentrepreneursinc. You can also visit pei.center to learn more about us. Thanks again from me, Kushi Han.

[00:33:47] - [Speaker 0]
We will see you soon in our next episode.