Akhilesh Upadhaya on From the Margins of Power: Exploring Nepali Borderland Communities

[00:00:13] Namaste and welcome to PODS by PEI, a Policy Discussion Podcast Series brought to you by Policy Entrepreneurs Inc.

[00:00:20] I am Khushi Hang and in today's episode, PEI colleague Shivangi Paudel is in conversation with Akhilesh Upadhaya on From the Margins of Power, Exploring Nepali Borderland Communities.

[00:00:32] Akhilesh is researching the Himalayan borderlands. He is working on a book discussing the history of cross-border trade, migration and family ties in the region.

[00:00:41] He also looks at the geopolitics of the Eastern Himalaya, where Bhutan, Nepal and Bangladesh share a crowded corridor with two big powers, India and China.

[00:00:52] He is a Senior Fellow with the Strategic Affairs Center at IIDS, a Kathmandu-based think tank.

[00:00:58] Shivangi and Akhilesh explore Nepal's borderland communities' unique challenges and contributions.

[00:01:04] They discuss how federalism has reshaped governance and service delivery in these regions,

[00:01:09] and examine the effects of cross-border politics and post-pandemic era restrictions on local livelihoods and trade.

[00:01:17] The conversation highlights how borderland communities are often excluded from national discussions,

[00:01:23] despite their critical role in conflict management and cross-border relations.

[00:01:28] Like listening to PODS? We'd love to hear your thoughts.

[00:01:31] Make sure to like, share and subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube or wherever you listen to the show.

[00:01:39] You can also follow us on Twitter at 3.2PEI, Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram at Policy Entrepreneurs Inc. for updates on the latest episodes.

[00:01:49] We hope you enjoy the conversation.

[00:02:00] Hello Akhilesh sir, welcome to PODS by PEI. I'm your host for today, Shibangi Paujel.

[00:02:06] Hi Shibangi, thank you for having me. It's an honour.

[00:02:10] Okay, so we're here today to talk about the relationship between Kathmandu's power centre and the borderland communities of Nepal,

[00:02:17] because I have a hypothesis that not only are they geographically at the peripheries of the country,

[00:02:24] but also in terms of policies and public service delivery.

[00:02:26] And this is something that I realised in the very early years as a researcher,

[00:02:32] when I was doing some field work along the southern border districts of Nepal.

[00:02:36] And I felt that the conversations around governance are too Kathmandu centric,

[00:02:41] and we tend to say Nepal, but talk about Kathmandu.

[00:02:45] And this has since become a very important topic to me.

[00:02:48] It's very close to my heart.

[00:02:49] And I thought that as someone who travels extensively along both borderlands,

[00:02:54] you'd be the perfect person to speak to about all of this.

[00:02:57] So my first question is, how do you view borders?

[00:03:00] That's a very interesting question and also a complex one.

[00:03:04] But broadly, I will try and deliver a few things I've observed at the borderlands.

[00:03:10] First of all, the way Kathmandu sees the borders,

[00:03:14] in the lack of a better terminology, I would call it imperial gaze.

[00:03:20] And there's sometimes in some of the policies,

[00:03:24] but also in discussions in the media, in the public sphere,

[00:03:28] especially in Kathmandu,

[00:03:30] the borderland and the people in the borderland communities

[00:03:34] and their issues are completely missed out.

[00:03:37] And I recently wrote an article in the Kathmandu Post, for example,

[00:03:42] the movement of elephants across the border.

[00:03:46] For elephants, there is no political boundary.

[00:03:50] And elephants cross over to a very, very large stretch of land

[00:03:56] during their life cycle, you know, also in annual cycle.

[00:03:59] For example, in Kakar Bitta or the Mechi Nagar,

[00:04:04] that the border point that touches the Indian chicken neck, West Bengal,

[00:04:07] herds of elephants travel as far away from,

[00:04:11] as Assam, southern Bhutan and West Bengal,

[00:04:15] then to Jhapa, Morang, Sunsari.

[00:04:19] That's the, how I started calling elephant belt of Nepal,

[00:04:24] Jhapa, Morang and Sunsari,

[00:04:26] because beyond that there's big koshi

[00:04:27] and elephants generally don't cross such huge rivers.

[00:04:32] But this side, it's kind of a happy hunting ground.

[00:04:36] So the reports I see from Kathmandu or the Kathmandu press

[00:04:40] or the press in general in Nepal is elephants,

[00:04:44] Indian elephants have come and marauded Nepali fields or Nepali farms.

[00:04:49] A, the elephants have no political boundary,

[00:04:52] have no idea of what political boundary is.

[00:04:55] Two, it is also not understanding the borderlands,

[00:05:01] which are, have a political demarcation,

[00:05:04] are actually a natural habitat of elephants for generations.

[00:05:10] Yeah, I'll stop there.

[00:05:12] Yeah.

[00:05:13] Thank you for that lovely anecdote.

[00:05:16] You spoke about elephants,

[00:05:18] but for people who are obviously affected by politics

[00:05:21] and these geographical demarcations,

[00:05:24] and how this decides a lot of things for them.

[00:05:28] How do you perceive the geographical positioning

[00:05:31] of borderland communities in relation to Kathmandu?

[00:05:34] And do you think that this affects their visibility

[00:05:36] and voice in national discussions?

[00:05:39] It does.

[00:05:39] I mean, like, in Tarai,

[00:05:41] I gave you an example of Jhapa just now,

[00:05:43] and let's go straight up north from Jhapa, you know.

[00:05:47] Ilam is also a bordering district,

[00:05:49] and further north,

[00:05:50] Pashtar is also a bordering district.

[00:05:52] Go further up.

[00:05:54] Olang Chunggola is even more interesting,

[00:05:56] say, Taplejung,

[00:05:57] that it's a bordering district to both Tibet,

[00:06:00] to the north,

[00:06:01] and Sikkim to east,

[00:06:04] let's say northeast,

[00:06:05] the Kansanjunga area, so-called.

[00:06:07] A lot of people can identify it

[00:06:08] because it's the Kansanjunga area,

[00:06:10] third highest peak in the world.

[00:06:13] When I went and talked to people

[00:06:16] in, say, northern stretches of Taplejung,

[00:06:20] not so much southern stretches,

[00:06:21] which is more, how do I say,

[00:06:23] kind of like connected socially,

[00:06:26] politically with south,

[00:06:27] as in Nepal.

[00:06:29] The northern lands,

[00:06:31] very, very northern lands,

[00:06:32] the people came from Tibet,

[00:06:34] still speak this Tibetan language,

[00:06:36] and they go for shopping to Riu.

[00:06:40] Riu is a border town just across.

[00:06:42] In the villages,

[00:06:43] if you go further north in Tibet,

[00:06:46] their ancestors came from there,

[00:06:47] but they still have marital ties on that side.

[00:06:50] They'll have cousins, etc.

[00:06:53] So when I went for one of my researches

[00:06:56] to Olang Tsunggola,

[00:06:57] this is a great anthropo

[00:06:59] in that part of the country

[00:07:02] or the world, I would say,

[00:07:04] even if you look at old history.

[00:07:07] While Tibet was disconnected,

[00:07:09] I went during the,

[00:07:11] when the border was closed due to COVID,

[00:07:13] because of China's zero COVID policy,

[00:07:16] but Tibet was an inseparable part

[00:07:19] of their conversation.

[00:07:20] Things like, okay,

[00:07:21] there's a mall there.

[00:07:22] We have families there.

[00:07:25] Ocule,

[00:07:26] G,

[00:07:26] you've come from Katwondo,

[00:07:28] you speak different languages from us,

[00:07:31] but those guys across

[00:07:32] speak the same language as we do.

[00:07:34] But there is also serious disconnect

[00:07:36] between how they thought and what.

[00:07:40] Forget Beijing,

[00:07:41] how the Beijing thought

[00:07:42] or Lhasa thought.

[00:07:43] You know,

[00:07:43] this is what I mean,

[00:07:44] you know,

[00:07:45] the borderline communities,

[00:07:46] because they inhabit

[00:07:48] that narrow stretches of land,

[00:07:51] oftentimes their voices

[00:07:52] do not travel as far as Katwondo.

[00:07:55] Forget Beijing,

[00:07:56] which is like so far away,

[00:07:57] you know,

[00:07:58] not even to Lhasa,

[00:07:59] the capital of Tibet.

[00:08:01] So there's a constant disconnect.

[00:08:04] While the yaks will have to graze

[00:08:06] on the pastures,

[00:08:07] wherever it is,

[00:08:08] lost green,

[00:08:09] or where the best vegetation is,

[00:08:11] the voices and the needs

[00:08:12] of these communities,

[00:08:14] say need for pasture land,

[00:08:15] need for shopping,

[00:08:16] it's winter,

[00:08:17] and they need warm quilts

[00:08:18] to buy in,

[00:08:19] you know,

[00:08:20] markets of Rio.

[00:08:21] I mean,

[00:08:22] it is not seen as urgent

[00:08:23] in Katwondo,

[00:08:24] because like,

[00:08:25] I've actually heard

[00:08:26] some people say,

[00:08:27] politician,

[00:08:28] you know,

[00:08:29] why are you talking about

[00:08:30] borderline communities?

[00:08:31] Only a few people live there,

[00:08:33] you know.

[00:08:33] My idea was,

[00:08:34] because only a few people

[00:08:36] live there,

[00:08:37] their voices are lost

[00:08:38] in Katwondo,

[00:08:40] not just in Katwondo,

[00:08:41] even in Tapelejung headquarters,

[00:08:43] that's Phungling,

[00:08:44] because the southern Tapelejung

[00:08:46] is more populated,

[00:08:48] and the people

[00:08:49] who get elected are,

[00:08:50] of course,

[00:08:51] from southern Tapelejung,

[00:08:52] right?

[00:08:53] Same with Mustang.

[00:08:54] People who come,

[00:08:55] who represent Mustang

[00:08:57] are not from borderline areas,

[00:08:59] you know,

[00:09:00] who are Tibetan Buddhist,

[00:09:01] followers of Tibetan Buddhism,

[00:09:04] you know.

[00:09:04] People who represent Mustang

[00:09:06] are usually Thakalis,

[00:09:08] who live in Tsom Tsom

[00:09:09] and the more densely populated areas,

[00:09:12] you know.

[00:09:13] Yogis Ji is now currently

[00:09:15] the Nepali Congress,

[00:09:16] young MP,

[00:09:16] perhaps the youngest

[00:09:17] in parliament currently.

[00:09:19] If not the youngest,

[00:09:20] definitely one youngest,

[00:09:21] he comes from southern Mustang.

[00:09:24] And when I go to Mustang,

[00:09:25] as in upper Mustang,

[00:09:26] and here these Tibetan communities

[00:09:28] are like followers of,

[00:09:30] let's not say Tibetan,

[00:09:31] followers of Tibetan Buddhism

[00:09:32] say,

[00:09:33] we don't get heard,

[00:09:35] forget in Katwondo,

[00:09:36] not even in Tsom Tsom.

[00:09:37] That is the district headquarters

[00:09:39] of Mustang.

[00:09:40] Exactly.

[00:09:40] So you're saying

[00:09:41] there's not only a dissonance

[00:09:42] between borderline communities

[00:09:44] of Nepal and Kathmandu,

[00:09:45] but even the local government,

[00:09:47] they're not responsive

[00:09:48] to the borderline communities

[00:09:50] and their issues in Nepal.

[00:09:52] Yeah.

[00:09:52] I would say,

[00:09:53] Shubhangi,

[00:09:54] it's almost a vicious cycle.

[00:09:56] Because the community is small,

[00:09:58] they are not heard.

[00:09:59] And because they are not heard,

[00:10:02] they're also kind of like migration.

[00:10:04] One of the things I see

[00:10:05] as a constant refrain

[00:10:07] each time I travel to

[00:10:09] borderline communities,

[00:10:10] there's a huge migration.

[00:10:12] And one of the enduring picture

[00:10:14] I bring to mind

[00:10:15] is locked doors

[00:10:16] with some places

[00:10:18] actually having

[00:10:18] those old traditional

[00:10:19] pote talsa

[00:10:20] on the door,

[00:10:21] you know.

[00:10:22] And some have,

[00:10:23] of course,

[00:10:24] some do migrate seasonally.

[00:10:26] It's super cold out there,

[00:10:28] you know,

[00:10:29] in say upper Mustang,

[00:10:30] a lot of people,

[00:10:31] a lot of families

[00:10:31] travel down to Jomsom

[00:10:34] or Pokhara

[00:10:35] or even to Kathmandu

[00:10:36] or Beni,

[00:10:37] et cetera,

[00:10:37] adjoining areas.

[00:10:38] But a lot of them

[00:10:41] have left for good.

[00:10:42] So the reason I say

[00:10:43] it's a vicious cycle

[00:10:44] is one,

[00:10:45] there is lack of opportunity.

[00:10:48] And because there is

[00:10:49] lack of opportunity,

[00:10:51] numerical representation

[00:10:52] is low

[00:10:53] because the population

[00:10:54] is small.

[00:10:55] And because the population

[00:10:56] is small

[00:10:57] and the political representation

[00:10:59] is almost negligible,

[00:11:00] there is no constituency

[00:11:01] to talk about their issues.

[00:11:03] And that makes opportunity

[00:11:05] even less for them.

[00:11:06] So it's a kind of vicious cycle

[00:11:08] that I see borderland communities

[00:11:10] getting caught up in.

[00:11:11] Especially in northern lands.

[00:11:13] Not so much in south

[00:11:14] as in Tarai,

[00:11:15] Tarai borderlands

[00:11:16] where the population

[00:11:17] is pretty decent.

[00:11:19] Yeah,

[00:11:19] also the opportunities

[00:11:20] compared to the northern borderlands.

[00:11:22] But the northern borderlands

[00:11:24] faces acute migration problem

[00:11:27] and population,

[00:11:28] you know,

[00:11:29] crisis.

[00:11:30] We'll definitely get into

[00:11:31] both southern borderland district

[00:11:33] and northern borderland district

[00:11:34] and their unique issues.

[00:11:35] But you've slightly touched on this.

[00:11:38] I was curious to see if,

[00:11:39] you know,

[00:11:40] the adoption of the federal,

[00:11:42] three-tier federal system

[00:11:43] of Nepal,

[00:11:43] we had high hopes from this.

[00:11:45] Has it influenced

[00:11:46] borderland communities positively?

[00:11:48] Has there been any change

[00:11:49] you've observed

[00:11:50] in public service delivery,

[00:11:52] efficiency,

[00:11:53] or lack of?

[00:11:54] That's a good one.

[00:11:55] My research,

[00:11:56] that's a good one.

[00:11:56] I am trying also

[00:11:58] to piece things together,

[00:12:00] beyond anecdotes on this.

[00:12:01] And I would like to qualify

[00:12:03] very early on

[00:12:04] that I haven't quite looked

[00:12:05] at federalism

[00:12:07] vis-a-vis,

[00:12:08] borderland vis-a-vis federalism,

[00:12:10] but I can share

[00:12:11] some anecdotal stories.

[00:12:12] I would say,

[00:12:13] in say,

[00:12:13] for example,

[00:12:14] Tarai borderland,

[00:12:15] you know,

[00:12:15] kind of like,

[00:12:16] say,

[00:12:17] the areas that I travel

[00:12:19] most for my research,

[00:12:20] but also a place

[00:12:21] I was born in,

[00:12:22] you know.

[00:12:23] Because the population

[00:12:25] density is quite good

[00:12:27] in these borderland areas,

[00:12:29] their voices

[00:12:30] in federated state system

[00:12:34] that we have now adopted

[00:12:35] is compared to

[00:12:36] a lot more stronger

[00:12:37] than, say,

[00:12:38] northern borderland,

[00:12:39] where,

[00:12:40] as I said,

[00:12:42] the villages,

[00:12:43] again,

[00:12:43] going back to the example,

[00:12:44] the villages are so remote,

[00:12:47] I mean,

[00:12:47] like,

[00:12:48] so distant,

[00:12:49] let's not use the word remote,

[00:12:50] so distant from

[00:12:51] Fungling District Headquarter,

[00:12:52] and also,

[00:12:53] like,

[00:12:54] the population size

[00:12:55] is so small,

[00:12:56] the representation

[00:12:57] in village municipality

[00:12:59] becomes less.

[00:13:01] So I can see,

[00:13:02] because of that,

[00:13:03] issues of service delivery,

[00:13:05] because from Fungling,

[00:13:07] I don't know,

[00:13:07] it's probably

[00:13:09] two days walk

[00:13:10] to some of these

[00:13:11] distant communities.

[00:13:13] So service delivery,

[00:13:14] is, of course,

[00:13:15] an issue.

[00:13:15] When I was coming back

[00:13:17] from,

[00:13:18] in one of my trips

[00:13:19] from Olang Tsunggola,

[00:13:20] you know,

[00:13:21] this one,

[00:13:21] again,

[00:13:22] a major entrepore

[00:13:23] back in heydays

[00:13:26] of Nepal-Tibet border,

[00:13:27] I found a mother,

[00:13:29] infant child,

[00:13:30] had been bitten

[00:13:31] by a dog,

[00:13:33] take a,

[00:13:33] take a jib,

[00:13:34] first of all,

[00:13:35] stop over at this

[00:13:36] Iladana for a night

[00:13:38] and take a jib

[00:13:39] next morning,

[00:13:41] just to get an injection

[00:13:42] for her infant son,

[00:13:45] you know.

[00:13:45] So you can see

[00:13:47] the service delivery

[00:13:48] is super challenged,

[00:13:50] despite the federated system,

[00:13:53] you know,

[00:13:53] because of,

[00:13:54] again,

[00:13:54] relative distance

[00:13:56] of these borderlands

[00:13:57] from centers of,

[00:13:59] I don't know,

[00:14:00] administrative centers,

[00:14:02] but also health centers,

[00:14:03] et cetera.

[00:14:04] Right.

[00:14:04] You spoke a little bit

[00:14:06] about the COVID-19

[00:14:08] and China's zero COVID policy

[00:14:11] and how that hampered

[00:14:13] a lot of things,

[00:14:14] but one of the things

[00:14:15] that it did do

[00:14:16] is hamper the business communities

[00:14:17] along the northern border

[00:14:18] of Nepal,

[00:14:19] because, you know,

[00:14:20] there were trucks

[00:14:21] stuck at the border

[00:14:22] and even when they were able

[00:14:23] to move the trucks,

[00:14:24] the products inside the truck

[00:14:26] were pretty much useless.

[00:14:28] And this is where you think,

[00:14:30] how does the government

[00:14:31] step in,

[00:14:32] in situations like this?

[00:14:33] So did the government

[00:14:35] of Nepal or China

[00:14:36] ever have a discussion

[00:14:38] about these affected traders

[00:14:39] or was there any effort

[00:14:41] to provide compensation

[00:14:43] of some sort

[00:14:44] for these traders?

[00:14:45] How do you think

[00:14:46] that these things

[00:14:47] then reflect the priorities

[00:14:49] of our policymakers,

[00:14:50] decision makers

[00:14:51] in Kathmandu?

[00:14:53] Okay.

[00:14:53] A few things there.

[00:14:54] I would highlight some points.

[00:14:56] First of all,

[00:14:57] Nepal's land trade,

[00:14:58] a lot of Nepal major exports

[00:15:00] still come from the ports,

[00:15:01] but let's say Nepal's land border.

[00:15:04] Tato Pani

[00:15:05] and, you know,

[00:15:06] these are major ports.

[00:15:08] And at least what happens there

[00:15:09] gets reported in the press

[00:15:11] and hence discussed

[00:15:12] in parliament

[00:15:13] and political circle.

[00:15:14] I'm not saying

[00:15:15] this wasn't bad.

[00:15:17] You know,

[00:15:17] let me back up.

[00:15:19] Because Nepal-China relations

[00:15:21] is so asymmetrical,

[00:15:23] it's always Beijing

[00:15:25] that decides

[00:15:25] when the border

[00:15:26] is going to be

[00:15:27] closed or open.

[00:15:29] as much as I have

[00:15:31] tried to understand

[00:15:32] the dynamics of this,

[00:15:33] not just as a borderland

[00:15:34] researcher in recent years,

[00:15:36] three or four years,

[00:15:37] but also earlier

[00:15:38] in my avatar

[00:15:39] as a newspaper editor

[00:15:40] for 10 years.

[00:15:42] It's always

[00:15:43] the Chinese side

[00:15:44] that decides

[00:15:45] when the border

[00:15:45] is going to be closed

[00:15:46] and when it is not,

[00:15:48] when it is going

[00:15:49] to be open.

[00:15:50] And that is

[00:15:50] very much

[00:15:51] a fundamental

[00:15:52] that we will do

[00:15:53] well to understand.

[00:15:55] Kathmandu has

[00:15:55] very little influence

[00:15:56] over when China

[00:15:58] or Beijing

[00:15:59] decides to open

[00:16:00] these various

[00:16:01] border crossings

[00:16:01] when it decides

[00:16:02] to close.

[00:16:03] That's number one point.

[00:16:05] Number two,

[00:16:06] even within that dynamic,

[00:16:09] at least the major

[00:16:10] border points

[00:16:11] because they handle

[00:16:11] a lot of trade,

[00:16:13] bilateral trade

[00:16:14] between Nepal

[00:16:14] and China,

[00:16:16] they get reported

[00:16:17] in Nepal's press

[00:16:18] if, say,

[00:16:19] X number of Apple trucks

[00:16:21] are standing

[00:16:21] on that side

[00:16:22] or lots of cargo,

[00:16:25] let's say,

[00:16:26] clothes for Tosai

[00:16:27] or shoes,

[00:16:28] et cetera,

[00:16:29] or furniture

[00:16:30] are standing

[00:16:31] on that side.

[00:16:32] Now, increasingly,

[00:16:33] of course,

[00:16:34] EV is China's

[00:16:35] major export now

[00:16:36] from these

[00:16:37] two border points,

[00:16:38] Tato Pani

[00:16:39] and Kerung.

[00:16:40] And that gets reported

[00:16:41] in press,

[00:16:41] I can see.

[00:16:42] But the borderline

[00:16:43] communities,

[00:16:44] their issues

[00:16:45] are seldom highlighted

[00:16:47] because it's

[00:16:48] a tiny community

[00:16:49] and it's not

[00:16:49] a powerful community

[00:16:50] again.

[00:16:51] And that gets

[00:16:52] very little space

[00:16:53] in our,

[00:16:55] not just news,

[00:16:56] but also public space.

[00:16:58] When I go to

[00:16:58] foreign policy forums

[00:16:59] here,

[00:17:00] this is something

[00:17:01] like I have

[00:17:02] been raising

[00:17:03] for the last

[00:17:03] several years now.

[00:17:04] It's always

[00:17:06] Katwondo-Bezing

[00:17:07] and Katwondo-Lasa trade

[00:17:09] that features

[00:17:11] high on the agenda

[00:17:12] but not concerns

[00:17:13] of borderline communities.

[00:17:15] Again,

[00:17:16] for the reason

[00:17:16] I mentioned earlier

[00:17:17] because it's

[00:17:20] a small community

[00:17:21] comparatively

[00:17:22] and it's also

[00:17:23] not a politically

[00:17:24] powerful community.

[00:17:26] So,

[00:17:26] while Nepal

[00:17:27] is already

[00:17:28] marginalized

[00:17:29] vis-a-vis

[00:17:30] in discussion

[00:17:31] with Beijing

[00:17:31] because of

[00:17:32] huge asymmetry

[00:17:34] given the size

[00:17:35] of our economy

[00:17:36] but various

[00:17:37] other things.

[00:17:38] But the issues

[00:17:39] of borderline

[00:17:39] communities

[00:17:40] and issues

[00:17:41] of concern

[00:17:42] for them

[00:17:42] say,

[00:17:44] pastors,

[00:17:44] setting of pastors,

[00:17:45] people on this side

[00:17:47] being allowed

[00:17:47] to go to that side

[00:17:49] or little exports

[00:17:50] whatever they can export

[00:17:51] to that side.

[00:17:52] They seldom feature

[00:17:53] in our discussion

[00:17:54] in public sphere.

[00:17:55] Yeah,

[00:17:56] our discussions

[00:17:56] are more overburdened

[00:17:57] by topics

[00:17:58] like border violations

[00:18:01] or like India

[00:18:02] trying to

[00:18:05] damage Nepal's

[00:18:06] sovereignty

[00:18:07] in some way.

[00:18:07] It's all about

[00:18:08] land and borders

[00:18:09] but never about

[00:18:09] the people

[00:18:10] along the land

[00:18:11] and borders.

[00:18:11] I remember

[00:18:12] when this Lipu Lake

[00:18:13] was at its peak

[00:18:15] this conversation

[00:18:16] it was never about

[00:18:16] the people there.

[00:18:17] It was always about

[00:18:19] oh,

[00:18:19] this treaty says

[00:18:21] that if the river

[00:18:22] flows in this way

[00:18:22] this land belongs

[00:18:23] to Nepal.

[00:18:24] It has never once

[00:18:25] been about the people

[00:18:26] who live along

[00:18:26] those borders

[00:18:27] and how that can

[00:18:28] create complications

[00:18:29] for them.

[00:18:30] And what do they

[00:18:31] think about it?

[00:18:32] That's very interesting

[00:18:33] you mentioned that.

[00:18:34] So in one of our

[00:18:35] episodes

[00:18:35] she did

[00:18:36] Vidya Chapa Gain.

[00:18:38] She put it brilliantly.

[00:18:40] She talked to people

[00:18:41] in the region

[00:18:42] beyond Kalapani

[00:18:44] around there

[00:18:45] and she said

[00:18:46] I would ask

[00:18:47] Karfundu people

[00:18:48] to stop talking

[00:18:49] about this.

[00:18:50] First of all

[00:18:50] link us

[00:18:51] through

[00:18:52] Darsula headquarters

[00:18:53] and give us

[00:18:56] unhindered

[00:18:56] passes to

[00:18:57] Nepal

[00:18:58] then mention it

[00:18:59] because we are

[00:19:00] at mercy

[00:19:01] of Indian

[00:19:01] border guards

[00:19:03] on that area

[00:19:04] and we're not

[00:19:05] even allowed

[00:19:05] to go there

[00:19:06] because we have

[00:19:07] to go there

[00:19:08] to come into

[00:19:09] Nepal

[00:19:09] but also

[00:19:10] for our shopping.

[00:19:11] And this is

[00:19:11] something I see

[00:19:12] when I go to

[00:19:13] Darsula for example.

[00:19:14] Darsula is closed.

[00:19:16] If the border

[00:19:17] there's a small

[00:19:18] border bridge

[00:19:19] if it is open

[00:19:20] Darsula is never

[00:19:20] closed.

[00:19:22] So there may be

[00:19:22] border blockade

[00:19:23] in Nepal

[00:19:24] but Darsula

[00:19:25] that small bridge

[00:19:27] that connects

[00:19:27] Darsula to

[00:19:28] Darsula

[00:19:28] just across

[00:19:30] Mahakali

[00:19:30] if it's open

[00:19:31] they can go

[00:19:31] and do all

[00:19:32] the shopping.

[00:19:33] It's much bigger

[00:19:33] of course

[00:19:34] Darsula than

[00:19:35] Darsula

[00:19:35] our Darsula

[00:19:36] headquarter

[00:19:37] of Darsula

[00:19:38] but this

[00:19:40] is the thing

[00:19:40] about borderline

[00:19:41] communities

[00:19:42] you know

[00:19:42] and I can

[00:19:43] see

[00:19:44] when little

[00:19:45] things happen

[00:19:46] in Darsula

[00:19:46] area

[00:19:47] newspapers

[00:19:48] or news

[00:19:49] websites

[00:19:49] here

[00:19:50] or like

[00:19:50] even

[00:19:51] politicians

[00:19:51] in Kathmandu

[00:19:52] who don't

[00:19:52] understand

[00:19:53] often times

[00:19:54] the intricacies

[00:19:54] of borderline

[00:19:55] communities

[00:19:57] talk in

[00:19:58] such

[00:19:58] ultra

[00:20:00] nationalistic

[00:20:01] terms

[00:20:01] what happens

[00:20:02] on the ground

[00:20:02] that it

[00:20:03] adversely

[00:20:04] impacts

[00:20:05] people there

[00:20:05] you know

[00:20:06] it's very

[00:20:07] important

[00:20:08] when you

[00:20:09] talk about

[00:20:10] this to

[00:20:10] understand

[00:20:11] the sentiments

[00:20:12] of borderline

[00:20:12] communities

[00:20:13] and how

[00:20:14] the decisions

[00:20:15] you make

[00:20:16] the political

[00:20:17] rhetoric

[00:20:17] you may use

[00:20:18] in Kathmandu

[00:20:19] will adversely

[00:20:20] impact the

[00:20:21] people in

[00:20:21] these borderline

[00:20:22] communities

[00:20:22] and there's

[00:20:24] this lack

[00:20:24] of understanding

[00:20:25] I see over

[00:20:27] and over

[00:20:27] in the way

[00:20:29] the foreign

[00:20:30] policy

[00:20:30] again

[00:20:32] is viewed

[00:20:32] from a

[00:20:33] strong

[00:20:33] Kathmandu

[00:20:34] gaze

[00:20:34] imperial gaze

[00:20:35] when they

[00:20:36] are

[00:20:36] when we

[00:20:37] are discussing

[00:20:38] these issues

[00:20:39] yeah

[00:20:40] this perfectly

[00:20:41] brings me

[00:20:41] to my

[00:20:42] next question

[00:20:42] because

[00:20:43] right after

[00:20:44] the COVID-19

[00:20:45] pandemic

[00:20:45] is when I

[00:20:46] was doing

[00:20:46] my field

[00:20:47] research

[00:20:47] along the

[00:20:48] southern border

[00:20:48] of Nepal

[00:20:49] and you

[00:20:50] know

[00:20:50] this was

[00:20:50] at a

[00:20:50] time

[00:20:50] where

[00:20:51] in Kathmandu

[00:20:52] they were

[00:20:52] talking about

[00:20:52] the spillover

[00:20:53] effects

[00:20:54] of COVID-19

[00:20:55] and how

[00:20:56] had the

[00:20:56] border

[00:20:57] been regulated

[00:20:57] or not

[00:20:58] open

[00:20:59] then Nepal

[00:21:00] would not

[00:21:00] have had

[00:21:00] to face

[00:21:01] the wrath

[00:21:01] of COVID

[00:21:02] in the way

[00:21:02] that it

[00:21:03] did

[00:21:03] and

[00:21:03] there was

[00:21:04] a lot

[00:21:04] of blaming

[00:21:05] all of

[00:21:06] that

[00:21:06] there was

[00:21:07] that was

[00:21:08] there

[00:21:08] but what

[00:21:08] was most

[00:21:09] as a

[00:21:10] foreign

[00:21:10] policy

[00:21:11] observer

[00:21:11] and as

[00:21:11] a researcher

[00:21:12] what struck

[00:21:12] me is

[00:21:13] how they're

[00:21:14] talking about

[00:21:14] policymakers in

[00:21:15] Kathmandu are

[00:21:16] talking about

[00:21:16] regulating

[00:21:17] the Indian

[00:21:17] Nepal border

[00:21:18] they're talking

[00:21:19] about possibly

[00:21:20] completely

[00:21:20] changing

[00:21:21] how the

[00:21:22] open border

[00:21:23] looks

[00:21:23] right now

[00:21:24] without

[00:21:24] taking

[00:21:25] into

[00:21:26] consideration

[00:21:26] or without

[00:21:27] even

[00:21:27] bringing

[00:21:28] representation

[00:21:28] from the

[00:21:29] borderline

[00:21:29] communities

[00:21:30] the people

[00:21:31] of which

[00:21:32] will be

[00:21:33] the ones

[00:21:34] who will

[00:21:34] be most

[00:21:35] affected

[00:21:36] by it

[00:21:36] because

[00:21:37] you know

[00:21:37] Roti

[00:21:38] Beti

[00:21:39] we talk

[00:21:39] about this

[00:21:40] but we

[00:21:40] say that

[00:21:41] because it

[00:21:41] is a

[00:21:42] big part

[00:21:43] of Nepal

[00:21:43] India

[00:21:43] relations

[00:21:44] and has

[00:21:45] been for

[00:21:45] many centuries

[00:21:46] and it's

[00:21:47] yeah again

[00:21:48] this is about

[00:21:48] how borderline

[00:21:49] communities

[00:21:50] are not

[00:21:51] only kept

[00:21:52] away from

[00:21:52] national

[00:21:53] decisions

[00:21:54] but also

[00:21:54] decisions

[00:21:55] that affect

[00:21:55] them the

[00:21:55] most

[00:21:56] so what

[00:21:57] are your

[00:21:57] insights

[00:21:57] on how

[00:21:58] these

[00:21:59] policies

[00:21:59] disproportionately

[00:22:00] affect

[00:22:00] them

[00:22:01] but how

[00:22:01] these

[00:22:02] policies

[00:22:03] are formulated

[00:22:03] and you

[00:22:05] know

[00:22:05] what needs

[00:22:07] to change

[00:22:07] maybe

[00:22:07] I'm glad

[00:22:09] you're asking

[00:22:09] this

[00:22:10] I was born

[00:22:11] in

[00:22:11] Badrapur

[00:22:11] and Badrapur

[00:22:12] is bang

[00:22:13] on Mechi

[00:22:13] border

[00:22:14] you know

[00:22:14] and I

[00:22:15] used to

[00:22:15] play

[00:22:16] cricket

[00:22:16] in my

[00:22:17] adolescence

[00:22:18] at

[00:22:18] Badrapur

[00:22:19] high

[00:22:19] school

[00:22:19] cricket

[00:22:19] ground

[00:22:20] and used

[00:22:20] to

[00:22:21] choke

[00:22:21] among

[00:22:21] friends

[00:22:22] if I

[00:22:22] hit

[00:22:23] a

[00:22:23] boundary

[00:22:23] four

[00:22:24] the ball

[00:22:26] will

[00:22:26] probably

[00:22:26] travel

[00:22:27] from

[00:22:27] Badrapur

[00:22:28] high

[00:22:28] school

[00:22:28] to

[00:22:28] the

[00:22:28] bordering

[00:22:29] Indian

[00:22:29] town

[00:22:29] of

[00:22:30] Galgalia

[00:22:30] you know

[00:22:30] it's

[00:22:32] more

[00:22:32] rhetorical

[00:22:33] device

[00:22:33] it

[00:22:34] actually

[00:22:34] doesn't

[00:22:34] because

[00:22:35] there's

[00:22:35] Mechi

[00:22:36] river

[00:22:36] in between

[00:22:36] so what

[00:22:37] I'm

[00:22:37] saying

[00:22:37] is

[00:22:38] when

[00:22:38] the

[00:22:38] borderline

[00:22:39] people

[00:22:40] in

[00:22:40] Karhundu

[00:22:41] say

[00:22:41] MPs

[00:22:42] or

[00:22:42] foreign

[00:22:42] policy

[00:22:43] discussions

[00:22:43] often

[00:22:44] happen

[00:22:45] not just

[00:22:45] among

[00:22:46] politicians

[00:22:46] but also

[00:22:47] media

[00:22:48] there's

[00:22:49] a lot

[00:22:49] of

[00:22:49] synergy

[00:22:49] in

[00:22:50] what

[00:22:50] media

[00:22:51] says

[00:22:51] and

[00:22:51] how

[00:22:52] politicians

[00:22:52] articulate

[00:22:53] their

[00:22:53] ideas

[00:22:53] and vice

[00:22:54] versa

[00:22:55] right

[00:22:55] there is

[00:22:55] lack

[00:22:56] of

[00:22:56] understanding

[00:22:56] about

[00:22:57] how

[00:22:58] intimate

[00:22:58] these

[00:22:59] ties

[00:22:59] are

[00:22:59] at

[00:23:00] the

[00:23:00] people

[00:23:00] to

[00:23:01] people

[00:23:01] label

[00:23:01] but also

[00:23:02] because

[00:23:03] they are

[00:23:03] so

[00:23:03] intimate

[00:23:03] how

[00:23:04] complex

[00:23:04] they

[00:23:05] are

[00:23:05] so

[00:23:06] this

[00:23:06] multifaceted

[00:23:07] nature

[00:23:08] of the

[00:23:08] bilateral

[00:23:09] ties

[00:23:09] is

[00:23:10] often

[00:23:10] ignored

[00:23:11] by

[00:23:12] people

[00:23:12] who

[00:23:12] haven't

[00:23:13] had

[00:23:13] the

[00:23:13] lived

[00:23:14] experience

[00:23:14] or

[00:23:15] understanding

[00:23:15] of the

[00:23:16] borderland

[00:23:16] in fact

[00:23:17] I

[00:23:17] encourage

[00:23:18] each time

[00:23:18] I joke

[00:23:20] with some

[00:23:20] of the

[00:23:20] MPs

[00:23:21] you know

[00:23:21] you should

[00:23:22] all

[00:23:22] especially

[00:23:22] who are

[00:23:23] speaking

[00:23:23] in

[00:23:23] parliament

[00:23:24] and foreign

[00:23:24] policy

[00:23:25] should have

[00:23:26] a crash

[00:23:26] course

[00:23:26] and live

[00:23:27] in borderland

[00:23:28] communities

[00:23:28] for three

[00:23:29] months

[00:23:29] and you

[00:23:30] begin

[00:23:30] to

[00:23:30] understand

[00:23:31] you know

[00:23:32] how

[00:23:32] for example

[00:23:33] in the

[00:23:34] say

[00:23:35] rice

[00:23:35] plant

[00:23:35] season

[00:23:36] how

[00:23:37] when

[00:23:37] there's

[00:23:38] lack

[00:23:38] of

[00:23:38] fertilizer

[00:23:40] distributed

[00:23:40] or

[00:23:42] can't

[00:23:42] obtain

[00:23:43] from

[00:23:43] say

[00:23:43] the

[00:23:44] center

[00:23:44] or

[00:23:44] when

[00:23:44] I

[00:23:45] say

[00:23:45] central

[00:23:45] Kathmandu

[00:23:46] or

[00:23:46] district

[00:23:47] headquarters

[00:23:47] or wherever

[00:23:48] Nepali market

[00:23:49] they just go

[00:23:49] across the

[00:23:50] border

[00:23:50] and get

[00:23:50] it

[00:23:51] and

[00:23:51] they'll

[00:23:52] just

[00:23:52] bring

[00:23:52] it

[00:23:52] in

[00:23:52] bicycle

[00:23:53] and

[00:23:54] people

[00:23:54] who are

[00:23:55] in the

[00:23:56] borderland

[00:23:56] including

[00:23:56] the police

[00:23:57] and the

[00:23:57] border

[00:23:58] guards

[00:23:58] they

[00:23:59] understand

[00:24:00] this

[00:24:00] they

[00:24:01] let

[00:24:01] them

[00:24:01] be

[00:24:02] I

[00:24:03] can

[00:24:03] just

[00:24:04] kind

[00:24:05] of

[00:24:05] like

[00:24:05] visualize

[00:24:07] the

[00:24:07] guy

[00:24:08] is

[00:24:08] bringing

[00:24:08] in

[00:24:08] a

[00:24:09] sack

[00:24:09] of

[00:24:09] fertilizer

[00:24:09] and

[00:24:10] the

[00:24:10] border

[00:24:10] guard

[00:24:10] will

[00:24:11] pretend

[00:24:11] as if

[00:24:11] he's

[00:24:12] chasing

[00:24:12] and

[00:24:12] he'll

[00:24:13] pretend

[00:24:13] as if

[00:24:13] he's

[00:24:13] running

[00:24:14] away

[00:24:14] from

[00:24:14] him

[00:24:15] so

[00:24:15] neither

[00:24:15] is

[00:24:16] he

[00:24:16] chasing

[00:24:16] in

[00:24:16] genuine

[00:24:17] sense

[00:24:17] neither

[00:24:18] is

[00:24:18] he

[00:24:18] running

[00:24:18] in

[00:24:19] a

[00:24:19] genuine

[00:24:19] sense

[00:24:20] so

[00:24:20] this

[00:24:21] is

[00:24:22] the

[00:24:22] complexity

[00:24:22] but

[00:24:23] if

[00:24:24] you

[00:24:24] go

[00:24:25] from

[00:24:25] with

[00:24:25] a

[00:24:26] carfundu

[00:24:26] gaze

[00:24:26] you'll

[00:24:27] see

[00:24:27] oh

[00:24:27] the

[00:24:27] border

[00:24:28] is

[00:24:28] so

[00:24:28] loose

[00:24:29] these

[00:24:30] guys

[00:24:30] are

[00:24:30] not

[00:24:30] doing

[00:24:30] their

[00:24:31] work

[00:24:31] or

[00:24:32] the

[00:24:32] guy

[00:24:32] is

[00:24:32] smuggling

[00:24:33] fertilizers

[00:24:34] across

[00:24:34] the

[00:24:34] border

[00:24:35] but

[00:24:35] these

[00:24:36] are

[00:24:36] little

[00:24:36] intricacies

[00:24:37] that

[00:24:38] come

[00:24:38] into

[00:24:38] play

[00:24:39] when

[00:24:39] we

[00:24:39] talk

[00:24:39] about

[00:24:40] people

[00:24:40] especially

[00:24:41] in

[00:24:41] borderline

[00:24:42] communities

[00:24:43] but also

[00:24:43] in

[00:24:44] northern

[00:24:44] borderline

[00:24:45] these

[00:24:46] things

[00:24:46] have

[00:24:46] been

[00:24:46] happening

[00:24:47] for

[00:24:47] generations

[00:24:48] and

[00:24:50] there's

[00:24:50] a

[00:24:51] serious

[00:24:51] lack

[00:24:51] of

[00:24:52] this

[00:24:53] understanding

[00:24:54] of

[00:24:54] what

[00:24:54] goes

[00:24:54] on

[00:24:55] the

[00:24:55] ground

[00:24:55] in

[00:24:56] some

[00:24:57] of

[00:24:57] the

[00:24:57] people

[00:24:57] who

[00:24:57] kind

[00:24:58] of

[00:24:58] talk

[00:24:58] about

[00:24:59] foreign

[00:24:59] policy

[00:24:59] issues

[00:25:00] and

[00:25:00] have

[00:25:01] actually

[00:25:01] influence

[00:25:01] on

[00:25:02] foreign

[00:25:02] policy

[00:25:02] issues

[00:25:03] and

[00:25:04] yeah

[00:25:04] and I

[00:25:05] would

[00:25:05] say

[00:25:06] you know

[00:25:06] if

[00:25:06] I

[00:25:06] don't

[00:25:07] know

[00:25:07] how

[00:25:07] appropriate

[00:25:08] it

[00:25:08] would

[00:25:08] be

[00:25:08] especially

[00:25:09] MPs

[00:25:10] and

[00:25:10] politicians

[00:25:11] of

[00:25:17] borderline

[00:25:18] communities

[00:25:18] let's

[00:25:19] say

[00:25:19] it

[00:25:19] could

[00:25:19] be

[00:25:20] a

[00:25:20] really

[00:25:21] enlightening

[00:25:21] experience

[00:25:22] for them

[00:25:22] to actually

[00:25:23] go and

[00:25:23] spend

[00:25:23] time

[00:25:24] there

[00:25:24] not

[00:25:24] surrounded

[00:25:25] by their

[00:25:25] karekartas

[00:25:26] all the

[00:25:26] time

[00:25:27] but

[00:25:27] more

[00:25:28] with

[00:25:28] the

[00:25:28] common

[00:25:29] people

[00:25:30] why

[00:25:30] do

[00:25:31] they

[00:25:31] depend

[00:25:31] on

[00:25:32] the

[00:25:32] markets

[00:25:33] next

[00:25:34] door

[00:25:34] and

[00:25:35] how

[00:25:35] do

[00:25:35] the

[00:25:36] cross

[00:25:36] border

[00:25:36] marriages

[00:25:37] how

[00:25:38] do

[00:25:38] they

[00:25:38] take

[00:25:39] place

[00:25:39] and

[00:25:40] half

[00:25:41] the

[00:25:41] families

[00:25:42] on

[00:25:42] this

[00:25:42] side

[00:25:42] of

[00:25:42] other

[00:25:43] half

[00:25:44] is

[00:25:44] in

[00:25:44] you

[00:25:46] know

[00:25:46] what

[00:25:46] do

[00:25:47] do

[00:25:47] I

[00:25:47] mean

[00:25:47] like

[00:25:48] your

[00:25:49] uncle

[00:25:49] lives

[00:25:49] on

[00:25:49] this

[00:25:50] side

[00:25:50] you

[00:25:51] know

[00:25:51] one

[00:25:51] of

[00:25:51] the

[00:25:51] cousins

[00:25:51] lives

[00:25:52] on

[00:25:52] this

[00:25:52] side

[00:25:52] and

[00:25:53] you

[00:25:53] are

[00:25:53] constantly

[00:25:54] traveling

[00:25:54] back

[00:25:55] and

[00:25:55] forth

[00:25:55] within

[00:25:55] a

[00:25:55] day

[00:25:56] you

[00:25:57] know

[00:25:57] so

[00:25:57] these

[00:25:58] intricacies

[00:25:59] often

[00:26:00] is not

[00:26:01] not

[00:26:01] often

[00:26:02] very

[00:26:03] often

[00:26:03] not

[00:26:03] well

[00:26:03] understood

[00:26:04] by

[00:26:04] a lot

[00:26:04] of

[00:26:04] policy

[00:26:05] makers

[00:26:06] especially

[00:26:06] I

[00:26:06] would

[00:26:07] like

[00:26:07] to

[00:26:07] qualify

[00:26:07] you

[00:26:08] know

[00:26:08] it's

[00:26:08] like

[00:26:08] half

[00:26:09] it's

[00:26:09] a

[00:26:09] half

[00:26:09] joke

[00:26:09] people

[00:26:10] who

[00:26:11] belong

[00:26:11] to

[00:26:11] party

[00:26:12] district

[00:26:12] I

[00:26:13] completely

[00:26:13] agree

[00:26:13] with

[00:26:13] you

[00:26:14] on

[00:26:14] that

[00:26:14] and

[00:26:14] when

[00:26:14] talking

[00:26:15] about

[00:26:15] trying

[00:26:15] to

[00:26:15] understand

[00:26:16] borderland

[00:26:16] communities

[00:26:17] we

[00:26:17] also

[00:26:18] need

[00:26:18] to

[00:26:18] understand

[00:26:18] that

[00:26:18] they're

[00:26:19] not

[00:26:19] some

[00:26:19] kind

[00:26:19] of

[00:26:20] victims

[00:26:20] but

[00:26:21] they

[00:26:21] also

[00:26:21] have

[00:26:22] significant

[00:26:23] roles

[00:26:23] that

[00:26:24] they've

[00:26:24] been

[00:26:24] playing

[00:26:24] for

[00:26:25] centuries

[00:26:25] for

[00:26:26] example

[00:26:26] you

[00:26:27] know

[00:26:27] borderland

[00:26:28] communities

[00:26:28] serve

[00:26:28] as the

[00:26:29] first

[00:26:29] line

[00:26:29] of

[00:26:29] defense

[00:26:30] for

[00:26:30] every

[00:26:31] country

[00:26:31] and

[00:26:31] in

[00:26:32] your

[00:26:32] recent

[00:26:32] human

[00:26:32] article

[00:26:33] and

[00:26:33] you've

[00:26:33] also

[00:26:33] touched

[00:26:34] on

[00:26:34] your

[00:26:34] article

[00:26:34] you've

[00:26:35] spoken

[00:26:35] about

[00:26:35] how

[00:26:36] rapid

[00:26:36] response

[00:26:37] teams

[00:26:37] often

[00:26:38] made

[00:26:38] up

[00:26:38] of

[00:26:38] local

[00:26:39] residents

[00:26:39] they

[00:26:40] play

[00:26:40] a

[00:26:40] crucial

[00:26:40] role

[00:26:41] in

[00:26:41] managing

[00:26:41] immediate

[00:26:42] conflicts

[00:26:43] and

[00:26:43] the

[00:26:44] government

[00:26:44] authorities

[00:26:45] are

[00:26:45] often

[00:26:45] distant

[00:26:46] when

[00:26:47] all

[00:26:47] of

[00:26:47] this

[00:26:48] is

[00:26:48] happening

[00:26:48] so

[00:26:49] can

[00:26:49] you

[00:26:50] elaborate

[00:26:50] on

[00:26:51] the

[00:26:51] significance

[00:26:52] of

[00:26:52] these

[00:26:52] borderland

[00:26:52] communities

[00:26:53] not only

[00:26:53] in

[00:26:53] this

[00:26:54] role

[00:26:54] but

[00:26:54] other

[00:26:55] vital

[00:26:55] contributions

[00:26:56] that

[00:26:56] they

[00:26:56] make

[00:26:56] that

[00:26:57] are

[00:26:57] often

[00:26:57] overlooked

[00:26:58] in

[00:26:58] mainstream

[00:26:58] discourse

[00:26:59] I'm

[00:27:00] glad

[00:27:00] you read

[00:27:00] this

[00:27:00] article

[00:27:01] I found

[00:27:01] it so

[00:27:02] interesting

[00:27:02] when I

[00:27:02] was

[00:27:03] spending

[00:27:03] some

[00:27:04] time

[00:27:04] in

[00:27:04] this

[00:27:05] borderland

[00:27:06] community

[00:27:06] just

[00:27:07] by

[00:27:07] Meiji

[00:27:07] River

[00:27:08] which

[00:27:09] is

[00:27:10] entry

[00:27:10] point

[00:27:11] to

[00:27:11] herds

[00:27:12] of

[00:27:12] elephants

[00:27:13] that

[00:27:13] come

[00:27:13] from

[00:27:14] India

[00:27:14] and

[00:27:14] also

[00:27:15] when

[00:27:15] they

[00:27:15] go

[00:27:15] back

[00:27:16] let's

[00:27:17] say

[00:27:17] this

[00:27:17] is

[00:27:18] the

[00:27:18] ground

[00:27:18] zero

[00:27:19] of

[00:27:19] elephant

[00:27:20] movement

[00:27:20] in

[00:27:20] West

[00:27:21] Bengal

[00:27:22] and

[00:27:22] Zapa

[00:27:23] corridor

[00:27:23] because

[00:27:24] when

[00:27:25] the

[00:27:25] elephants

[00:27:25] come

[00:27:26] into

[00:27:26] the

[00:27:26] villages

[00:27:27] the

[00:27:27] people

[00:27:27] who

[00:27:27] are

[00:27:27] most

[00:27:28] affected

[00:27:28] are

[00:27:28] the

[00:27:29] villagers

[00:27:29] themselves

[00:27:29] and

[00:27:30] there

[00:27:30] is

[00:27:31] a

[00:27:31] protocol

[00:27:31] that

[00:27:32] you

[00:27:32] are

[00:27:32] supposed

[00:27:32] to

[00:27:32] whenever

[00:27:33] something

[00:27:33] happens

[00:27:33] in

[00:27:34] from

[00:27:34] the

[00:27:34] local

[00:27:35] CDO

[00:27:36] or

[00:27:36] district

[00:27:37] forest

[00:27:37] officer

[00:27:38] and

[00:27:39] I

[00:27:39] recorded

[00:27:39] at

[00:27:40] least

[00:27:40] one

[00:27:40] instance

[00:27:42] when

[00:27:42] a

[00:27:43] baby

[00:27:43] elephant

[00:27:44] was

[00:27:44] in

[00:27:44] serious

[00:27:45] distress

[00:27:45] probably

[00:27:46] like

[00:27:46] less

[00:27:47] than

[00:27:47] a

[00:27:47] month

[00:27:47] old

[00:27:48] you

[00:27:48] probably

[00:27:49] know

[00:27:49] that

[00:27:49] elephants

[00:27:50] before

[00:27:50] they

[00:27:50] start

[00:27:51] using

[00:27:51] their

[00:27:52] trunk

[00:27:52] they

[00:27:53] rely

[00:27:53] entirely

[00:27:54] on

[00:27:54] the

[00:27:54] her

[00:27:54] especially

[00:27:55] the

[00:27:55] mother

[00:27:55] because

[00:27:56] elephant

[00:27:57] trunk

[00:27:57] muscles

[00:27:58] are so

[00:27:58] complex

[00:27:58] they

[00:27:59] take

[00:27:59] months

[00:27:59] to

[00:28:00] develop

[00:28:00] so

[00:28:01] they

[00:28:01] are

[00:28:01] completely

[00:28:02] reliant

[00:28:03] on

[00:28:03] their

[00:28:03] mother

[00:28:03] for

[00:28:04] their

[00:28:04] survival

[00:28:05] so

[00:28:05] one

[00:28:06] of

[00:28:06] the

[00:28:06] members

[00:28:06] of

[00:28:07] the

[00:28:07] rapid

[00:28:07] response

[00:28:08] team

[00:28:08] he

[00:28:08] was

[00:28:09] alerted

[00:28:09] and

[00:28:10] he

[00:28:10] understood

[00:28:10] that

[00:28:10] the

[00:28:11] baby

[00:28:11] has

[00:28:11] to

[00:28:11] be

[00:28:11] saved

[00:28:12] and

[00:28:31] as

[00:28:32] day

[00:28:32] broke

[00:28:33] more

[00:28:33] people

[00:28:34] gathered

[00:28:34] there

[00:28:34] was

[00:28:34] a lot

[00:28:35] of

[00:28:35] noise

[00:28:35] the

[00:28:36] herd

[00:28:37] slowly

[00:28:37] started

[00:28:37] and

[00:28:38] the

[00:28:38] mother

[00:28:38] was

[00:28:38] the

[00:28:39] only

[00:28:39] person

[00:28:40] you

[00:28:40] know

[00:28:40] mother

[00:28:40] so

[00:28:41] beautiful

[00:28:41] was

[00:28:42] the

[00:28:42] only

[00:28:42] person

[00:28:43] trying

[00:28:43] to

[00:28:43] defend

[00:28:44] this

[00:28:44] calf

[00:28:45] elephant

[00:28:46] calf

[00:28:46] her

[00:28:46] calf

[00:28:46] her

[00:28:47] child

[00:28:47] right

[00:28:48] but

[00:28:49] even

[00:28:49] she

[00:28:50] left

[00:28:50] because

[00:28:51] she

[00:28:51] couldn't

[00:28:51] do

[00:28:51] it

[00:28:51] yeah

[00:28:52] and

[00:28:53] they

[00:28:53] tried

[00:28:54] to

[00:28:54] inform

[00:28:55] the

[00:28:55] rapid

[00:28:56] response

[00:28:56] team

[00:28:57] by

[00:28:57] this

[00:29:01] so

[00:29:02] they

[00:29:03] tried

[00:29:03] to

[00:29:03] naturally

[00:29:03] as

[00:29:04] the

[00:29:04] protocol

[00:29:04] is

[00:29:05] inform

[00:29:05] the

[00:29:06] CDO

[00:29:07] and

[00:29:07] DFO

[00:29:07] the

[00:29:09] DFO

[00:29:09] I was

[00:29:10] told

[00:29:10] his

[00:29:10] only

[00:29:11] concern

[00:29:11] was

[00:29:12] the

[00:29:12] story

[00:29:12] shouldn't

[00:29:13] get

[00:29:13] out

[00:29:13] to

[00:29:13] the

[00:29:13] media

[00:29:14] it

[00:29:15] should

[00:29:15] not

[00:29:15] become

[00:29:16] a

[00:29:16] big

[00:29:16] news

[00:29:17] in

[00:29:17] Kathmandu

[00:29:17] while

[00:29:18] for

[00:29:18] them

[00:29:18] for

[00:29:19] rapid

[00:29:20] response

[00:29:20] team

[00:29:21] such

[00:29:21] a

[00:29:21] beautiful

[00:29:21] cross

[00:29:22] border

[00:29:22] mechanism

[00:29:24] with

[00:29:25] locals

[00:29:25] from

[00:29:25] either

[00:29:26] side

[00:29:26] they

[00:29:26] understand

[00:29:27] that

[00:29:27] they

[00:29:28] are

[00:29:28] the

[00:29:28] first

[00:29:28] line

[00:29:29] of

[00:29:29] defense

[00:29:30] but

[00:29:30] also

[00:29:30] first

[00:29:30] line

[00:29:31] of

[00:29:31] attack

[00:29:31] in

[00:29:32] this

[00:29:32] case

[00:29:32] of

[00:29:32] elephants

[00:29:34] so

[00:29:34] it

[00:29:35] is

[00:29:35] in

[00:29:35] their

[00:29:36] interest

[00:29:36] to

[00:29:36] alert

[00:29:36] their

[00:29:37] villages

[00:29:37] if

[00:29:37] there's

[00:29:38] a

[00:29:38] wild

[00:29:38] elephant

[00:29:39] going

[00:29:39] on

[00:29:39] a

[00:29:39] rampage

[00:29:40] you

[00:29:41] know

[00:29:41] but

[00:29:42] also

[00:29:42] to

[00:29:42] defend

[00:29:43] these

[00:29:43] baby

[00:29:44] elephants

[00:29:44] because

[00:29:45] they

[00:29:49] strongly attached to. Forget Kathmandu, Chandra Gaudi, which is the district headquarter of

[00:29:55] Jhapa, it doesn't get it. For them, it is still distant. It's just a few kilometers away, but the

[00:30:03] issue is still distant for them. For them, there is no luxury to waiting, oh, it'll be

[00:30:09] morning and then we'll try and do something about it. You know, whenever such emergency

[00:30:14] situations happen, rapid response team, I found out they would come into operation

[00:30:20] in the middle of the night or whenever such emergencies happen. Because for them, it's an

[00:30:25] immediate priority. They don't have the luxury to wait until the next morning, next month for

[00:30:30] Chandra Gaudi, Birat Nagar, which is the provincial headquarter of Kosi province where Jhapa is,

[00:30:37] or Kathmandu to wake up next morning or next month, or the parliament to take up these issues,

[00:30:42] you know. So I can see that there's a serious disconnect between the problems, issues and

[00:30:48] aspirations of the people in the borderland and how Sandhra Gaudi, Birat Nagar or Kathmandu views them.

[00:30:55] You mentioned the media and how the authority, his main concern was how this should not be picked

[00:31:00] up by the media and Kathmandu does not need to know about this. This brings me to my question.

[00:31:06] Not only I, but it is definitely the role of media. It is the responsibility of media,

[00:31:12] especially in a democracy, to cover marginalized faces, issues, achievements, all of it. But like

[00:31:20] you said, when it does get covered, it's not really centered around the people, but on other

[00:31:25] concerns that Kathmandu is interested in. So as a borderland researcher, and also as someone with an

[00:31:32] extensive experience in journalism, who's also writing a book on Eastern Himalaya and borderland

[00:31:39] communities and issues and their issues, how do you perceive the role of Nepali media? Have they been

[00:31:45] adequately representing marginalized communities, their stories, their faces? What's your view on this?

[00:31:51] Okay. I'm glad, you know, in recent times, I see more and more coverage in major newspapers,

[00:31:59] Kanti Pur, Arnopurna Post, Kathmandu Post, I don't know, recent years of concerns of borderland

[00:32:06] community and recent issues. This is really heartening to see that. But that doesn't take

[00:32:13] away the fact that oftentimes when I talk to newspaper editors, common refrain is, oh, no one lives there.

[00:32:20] And hence, there is no story. Now, for any country's sovereignty, yes, there is population, but there is

[00:32:26] also geography. And don't forget, these places, you know, are, say, Taplizung. Enormous, there's

[00:32:36] enormous biodiversity there. You'll see rhododendron forests, you'll see yak herds. So much the reason that

[00:32:43] these need to be protected. So even when there is not enough people, my earlier thesis of these

[00:32:50] communities getting caught up in vicious cycle, because there is not enough people to talk about

[00:32:55] them. Hence, the role of the media even more urgent, you know, if there is community to talk

[00:33:01] about it, perhaps the media doesn't need to take up that issues. You know, media is supposed to give

[00:33:06] to the voice, to the marginalized, to the people who are not often at the center stage of public discourse.

[00:33:14] That, I think, is the fundamental, one of the fundamental, how would I say, reasons that in a democracy,

[00:33:22] media's role becomes so vital. But also, you are protecting not just that, the biodiversity in the region,

[00:33:29] which is also extremely important. You know, it's the same case in northern Sikkim, or Siliguri,

[00:33:35] the biggest city in the chicken neck corridor in West Bengal. It is not in the mainstream Indian discourse.

[00:33:41] Yeah, it is not even Calcutta's discourse, perhaps, you know, kind of like areas like Darjeeling,

[00:33:47] Kalempong, you know, Sikkim, but also northern Sikkim, issues of valleys in northern Sikkim, and how yak herds

[00:33:55] are depleting. And because yak herds are not getting to travel to Tibetan borderland and vice versa,

[00:34:02] the gene pool of yak has severely depleted. And according to an Ishimode report I read,

[00:34:09] in Tibet and Kinghai, it's a province adjoining to Tibet, do you find yak in the wild now?

[00:34:16] So the gene pool has depleted because these nomads are semi-nomads, wish to travel freely,

[00:34:24] say in Bhutan, the eastern Himalayas, Sikkim, Tibet, Nepal. Because the border has become hard,

[00:34:32] you are Nepali, you are Sikkimese, Indian, you are Bhutanese, you are Chinese, you know? So it is sad

[00:34:41] enough, but sadder still is the story of the yakks. There have also been ascribed citizenship. You are

[00:34:47] Chinese yak, you are Nepali yak, you are Bhutanese yak, you are Sikkimese yak. So there's a serious,

[00:34:54] serious need to look into this issue as to how much disservice we are doing in the name of a nation

[00:35:02] to this wonderful, how would I say, kind of heritage, but also the fact that many of these

[00:35:11] things have been handed down to us for generations. And then political boundaries for flora and fauna

[00:35:18] means nothing, but also borderline communities who are so reliant on each other, you know, because they

[00:35:24] were there, they have been living there before the idea of Westphalian state came into being.

[00:35:31] Westphalian state demanded that, oh, you are a Nepali, you have to speak this way, you have to wear

[00:35:36] this way. And you can only kind of like seek help from Fungling or Chandra Gauri or Biratnagar

[00:35:44] or Kathmandu, not so much to the community just across the border. And the whole cycle of dependence

[00:35:52] has to be broken because you are Chinese, you're Indian, don't rely on the communities next door,

[00:35:59] you know, and I see that also in, how would I say, breakdown of social ties. For example, when I was

[00:36:07] talking to someone in Taplizung, someone got married, let's say a girl from Tibet came to this side,

[00:36:13] because she liked the guy, they got married. But her parents from Tibet came and forcibly took the girl back.

[00:36:19] You know, because you as a Tibetan or Chinese are not supposed to marry a Nepali. But they are both from

[00:36:27] the same community, they like each other. But that's not reason enough to get married. You know,

[00:36:32] there's also a bit of economic factor in recent years about how Tibet has, especially in terms of

[00:36:39] economic progress, has really advanced compared to borderland community in Nepali sides. But still,

[00:36:45] to me, it is not reason enough to kind of separate people, you know, who by their own, how would I say,

[00:36:52] kind of interest wanted to get married. And then parents would say, okay, if we don't take them away,

[00:36:57] I was interviewing local village leader as to say, what is the price for the boy not agreeing

[00:37:05] to give the girl away? You know, his wife, let's say, you know, or a partner,

[00:37:10] or there's a huge price that her family will have to pay into bed. So yeah, this is increasingly

[00:37:16] this idea of seamless border versus hard border. And as we say in international relations term,

[00:37:23] hard border, deciding kind of like norms, and way of life for the common people,

[00:37:31] or the people who have lived in others, either side of the border, either side of I would,

[00:37:36] I would now like to qualify increasingly, what has now been the international border. Don't forget,

[00:37:42] you know, when it's it was only after PRC, People's Republic of China, say, especially after 40s,

[00:37:49] 49 50s, Tibet was came on under strong control of China. Until then, you know, a lot of these borderland

[00:37:58] areas didn't have a pronounced boundary, honestly, even on the Nepal side, and I was talking to someone

[00:38:04] doing my research, very, very long interview. And he said, Oh, we decided to come to Nepal,

[00:38:09] but we also brought land to Nepal when he decided that we were Nepalese. So you guys actually,

[00:38:15] he was telling me, you guys actually got land with us territory with us. So this high whole idea of

[00:38:21] territoriality in borderland is hugely questionable. What is Tibet? What is Nepal? What is China? So,

[00:38:28] yeah, I'm giving you a very, very ground perspective, you know, people in Carpando men always

[00:38:34] appreciate this school of thought and argument.

[00:38:37] But that's exactly why we're here and talking about this in such depth. You've mentioned both

[00:38:42] of our neighbors, and I think it would be impossible to talk about our borderland communities without

[00:38:47] talking about how geopolitics affects them. So we've seen interventionist counter interventionist

[00:38:54] behaviors from both of our neighbors, and then it plays out in Nepal. And sometimes how I see it

[00:38:59] personally is that the grievances of borderland communities are often leveraged by our more

[00:39:04] powerful neighbors for their own strategic interests. We saw it unfold in 2015. Even then,

[00:39:10] the mainstream media discourse was almost trying to villainize borderland communities, you know, and then

[00:39:16] suggesting that borderland communities stand to benefit from these geopolitical dynamics in the

[00:39:23] region where, you know, let's say our neighbors sort of challenge our sovereignty or whatever.

[00:39:27] There's this perception here. I am of the thinking, I personally don't believe that. I think that there

[00:39:33] are political ramifications within Nepal that adversely affect borderland communities rather than

[00:39:40] them benefiting from these geopolitical happenings. What are your views on that?

[00:39:44] This is a complex one. I would say kind of like, let's say, I mean, I can only offer specific examples.

[00:39:51] Issue with the AI I just discussed is definitely one of them. And then the way, while the word imperial gaze,

[00:39:57] the term terminology was earlier coined by the way imperialists looked at the global south,

[00:40:04] I'm increasingly begin to use this word in the way Beijing, Delhi looks at even the smaller states within

[00:40:12] the global south, in this case, South Asia, say Bhutan and Nepal. But to go further down, I would even say

[00:40:20] the way Kathmandu and Thimphu looks at their own borderland communities, because these places are not

[00:40:28] hugely populated and they come into, they become international news, places like Doklam, for example,

[00:40:34] when there's a standoff between Delhi and Beijing for this, you know, kind of piece of land,

[00:40:43] strategic piece of land, highland that overlooks the Indian chicken neck. And then China wants this,

[00:40:50] so is the story. The borderland communities or the borderland geography come into the national and

[00:40:56] international land light, say Kathmandu's gaze or Delhi's gaze or Beijing's gaze,

[00:41:02] or even beyond say Washington, London, or even beyond that, or United Nations gaze, when they

[00:41:09] come into, how would I say, this geopolitical theater. Oh, it's interesting, Doklam. There are also people

[00:41:17] who live there. There are also people who own Yak Herds there, there are found there. Not exactly,

[00:41:24] maybe Doklam is such a high plateau, I'm not too sure about that, but many of these borderland communities.

[00:41:29] Mm-hmm. So I don't see the dynamic that is discussed, say in Kathmandu or Delhi,

[00:41:37] or Beijing, intricate issues of say food security, need for getting pastures for yaks when there's more,

[00:41:45] say, vegetation available on either side of the, whichever side of the border, and a particular month

[00:41:52] of the year, months of the year. Or issues of need to get kind of daily commodities, if you're living in,

[00:42:00] say, Olang Tsunggola or Mustang and have to cross over to Kolar or Bordera to buy, I don't know,

[00:42:06] daily rasan to get to stores in Lomandhang. You know, these things are, these news don't often,

[00:42:15] the need or urgency of the need don't often travel to the capitals. And they come into news only when

[00:42:21] they're like, especially big, say, border issues, a border dispute. Then suddenly they become,

[00:42:29] they take strong significance in the national discourse, much, much beyond their immediate

[00:42:38] geography, which is really unfortunate. So my final question, it's a broad one as a researcher,

[00:42:45] as a journalist, as a person. What would you like to tell the decision makers here in Kathmandu

[00:42:51] and regarding borderlands and borderland communities? I would say that when you make policy

[00:42:59] and when you talk in parliament or the national states, you know, and, you know, as someone like who's

[00:43:07] analyzed the, how would I say, kind of like interface between political rhetoric and policies,

[00:43:12] they have such synergy. You know, what you kind of like use in your political rhetoric become policy.

[00:43:20] Oftentimes there's not enough synergy, but more often than not, there is in a democracy.

[00:43:25] Don't be trigger happy, please. Keep in mind what you say, the borderland communities,

[00:43:31] if you're talking about humla, keep in mind how is that going to impact borderland communities,

[00:43:38] tillera quote. When you're talking about taplejung or kind of like northern borderland issues in general,

[00:43:47] general, keep in mind how will that impact the borderland communities there?

[00:43:51] If you're talking about conservation, talk to people in Zapa, especially where the elephant problem is

[00:44:01] everyday occurrence almost in some of the villages. Talk to them. Travel there. I mean,

[00:44:06] don't rely totally on what gets reported in the media and assume that that's a sacrosanct

[00:44:12] or there's only story there is. Travel there, talk to local communities there,

[00:44:18] and you're going to get to know a very different side of story you had otherwise not assumed there was.

[00:44:27] It's very, very important. And I often see in these Kathmandu-centric debates or Delhi-centric debates

[00:44:34] or whichever capital-centric debates, the issues the local communities look at it,

[00:44:41] versus how Kathmandu or Delhi looks at it is very, very different, sometimes almost diametrically opposite.

[00:44:47] So this comes because of your lack of understanding of local sensitivities and local stories.

[00:44:54] Wow. That was wonderful. I personally had a great time. Did you enjoy our episode?

[00:45:00] Yeah, I did. I mean, it's a privilege, honestly, to talk about issues so dear to my heart.

[00:45:05] And it doesn't always find the space in, yeah, not just in Nepal, even beyond Nepal.

[00:45:12] Yeah, I'm glad we were able to find this synergy and do this episode. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:45:16] Thank you.

[00:45:24] Thanks for listening to Pods by PEI. I hope you enjoyed Shivangi's conversation with Akhilesh

[00:45:30] on From the Margins of Power, Exploring Nepali Borderland Communities.

[00:45:35] Today's episode was produced by Nirjan Rai with support from Biputi Bhatta and me, Khushihan.

[00:45:40] The episode was recorded at PEI Studio and was edited by Biputi Bhatta.

[00:45:45] Our theme music is courtesy of Rohit Shakya from Zindabad.

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